HC Deb 21 February 1896 vol 37 cc836-53

On the motion to go into Committee of Supply,

MR. ALFRED THOMAS (Glamorgan, E.) rose to move:— That in the opinion of this House, it is unjust that Wales should receive no share of the Museum Grants of the United Kingdom, and that it is expedient to make provision similar to that made for Scotland and Ireland for the expenditure of a due share of the Museum Grants in Wales. He pointed out that in 1890 the then Vice President of the Council promised that later on the Government would establish a Welsh Museum and would place Wales on the same footing as Scotland and Ireland; but the misfortunes of the General Election had placed the Liberals in the cold shade of Opposition. He was glad that Scotland and Ireland were placed in a more favourable position, for they enjoyed a grant of £48,000; and he now, on behalf of Wales, asked for money to establish a Museum, Library and School of Art for the Principality. Whatever arguments could be urged on behalf of Scotland and Ireland could with equal propriety and justice be urged for Wales. The Welsh were an old race, and one of the oldest partners in the United Kingdom. In Wales there was a wealth of ancient manuscripts and many other objects of antiquarian and historical interest. In consequence of the lack of a proper fireproof building to store the priceless manuscripts, two large collections had already been lost by fire. Many owners of ancient documents allowed them to be deposited in cellars and outhouses, and they were becoming rapidly destroyed. If a building were erected, however, many gentlemen possessed of such collections would be glad to be relieved of the responsibility of keeping them. If such documents were not absolutely national property, they were certainly of national interest. They were told that there was a decadence in English mercantile prosperity, and that competition was becoming more severe day by day. It was also said that our most successful competitors were those who fostered technical education; and they ought to recognise the fact that the two nations who were once a long way behind England in her output of steel and iron—Belgium and Germany—had now outstripped this country. He contended that it was our duty to do all we could to place our artisans in the same position as those of foreign countries. In Wales there were two great staple industries—mining and manufactured steel and iron. In order to properly equip their mining students it was necessary that they should have the best mineralogical collections obtainable. They also wished to form a school of Science and Art. In the domain of art Wales hold high rank in poetry and music, but in sculpture they had not done so well; but if there existed such a stimulus as would be forthcoming from a Royal School, encouragement would be given both to painting and sculpture. In the Principality they possessed facilities in the matter of education, but the edifice would not be completed until there was a National Museum and School of Art. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would put the coping-stone to the edifice and thereby earn the undying gratitude of the Welsh people. He also advocated the Motion, on the ground of national sentiment. In his opinion the principle of nationality in Wales should be recognised in every shape and form; and in conclusion he claimed for the people of Wales the grant of a home in which might be handed down to future generations those cherished records of the past of which they were so justly proud. He begged to move the Motion standing in his name.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

, in seconding the Motion, said, he was glad that this Motion did not raise any Party question. It was one which ought to be regarded with as much favour by Gentlemen representing Welsh constituencies and sitting on the opposite Benches, as by those with whom he usually acted. The substance of the Resolution had been supported by non-political societies throughout Wales, and was in the broadest sense a national question. He was further encouraged by the fact that the replies given to questions by the last Minister of Education and the present Vice President of the Council were of the most kindly and encouraging character. The late Vice President, speaking on the 21st August, 1894, said that he had no doubt some place would be found for a Central Museum, and he could only say that when the time came he should be glad to apply the same system to Wales as was applied in Edinburgh and Dublin, and, although Chancellors of the Exchequer were persons who proverbially sat tight on the lid of the Treasury chest, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir W. Harcourt), when appealed to on the subject, did not give any negative reply, but simply said that the Principality had not been neglected during the Session of 1894, and that the Government would always be ready to consider the claims of Wales. When the matter was brought up last year, the right hon. Member for Cambridge University stated that he must express his own most friendly feeling towards Welsh nationality, and his most earnest desire to see a Welsh National Museum established. There was therefore ample justification for bringing this matter forward. What was the request they made? It was that Wales should be treated proportionately to population on the same footing as Scotland and Ireland, in regard to Museum grants. Now how did Wales stand as compared with Scotland and Ireland in grants for Museum purposes? The Estimates passed in August last showed that Scotland received for a National Gallery and a Museum of Science and Art £17,032, while Ireland received for a National Gallery, Library, School of Art, Royal College of Science, Hibernian Academy, and Botanic Gardens, £31,254, making a total for Scotland and Ireland of £48,286 per annum. This did not include any expenditure on capital account. A magnificent building had been erected in Dublin, which had cost about £150,000 and had been erected as a natural corollary to the system of Intermediate Education which had been established in Ireland. Now Wales had started her system of Intermediate Education, and what they asked was that to complete the educational edifice she should receive in capital and income her proportionate share of Museum grants, in respect of which she at present received nothing. The museums, libraries, art galleries, horticultural gardens, and scientific collections which had been established in Scotland and Ireland had enriched the life of the Scottish and Irish nations, and he would never grudge money which was spent on institutions which not only gave the youth of the nation a better equipment for the battle of life, but added beauty and variety of interest to the national life. No objection could be raised on the ground that Wales ought not to be separately treated in this matter. Scotland and Ireland were parts of the United Kingdom, but they were separately dealt with in regard to Museum Grants. Wales repeatedly had received special treatment in all matters relating to Intermediate and Higher Education at the hands of both Liberal and Unionist Governments, and the object of the present Motion was the natural and logical sequel of the policy pursued towards Wales by both parties in regard to educational matters of a non-controversial character. Whatever might be said about Nationalism of a partisan character, there was, after all, a kind of Welsh Nationalism in which the representatives of Wales were all agreed, and the question raised by this Motion belonged to that kind of Nationalism; it lay outside the sphere of party politics, and he hoped no party spirit would be introduced into it. They might be told that they in Wales had their share in the British Museum. So had the people of Scotland and Ireland, and yet they had National Museums of their own. And of what use was the British Museum to Wales? He had no doubt that that great institution looked well after the antiquarian interests of the remotest regions on the surface of the globe—he only wished it could spare a little time to the antiquities of the Welsh people. He did not object to the British Museum delving into the antiquities of every distant country, but it paid so little regard to Wales that it was absurd to regard the British Museum as an effective substitute for a National Museum for Wales ["Hear, hear!"] When valuable collections of Welsh books and manuscripts, accumulated with the patient care and work of a lifetime, were about to be dispersed under the auctioneer's hammer, where was the British Museum? Why, they had not a single Welsh expert attached to that Museum to make purchases. For example, the collections of the late Mr. E. G. Salisbury, who once represented Parliament in Chester for some years, would have been absolutely lost to Wales so far as the British Museum was concerned. The other day they saw that Owen Glyndwr's badge had been sold in a London auction room for £70. Many excellent collections of ancient Welsh manuscripts like the one made by Ieuan Brydydd Hir had been scattered to the four winds, and the British Museum had failed to save them. Some had been entirely lost, and others were in the hands of persons who were ignorant of their value. One collection had been bought by a Scotchman, but fortunately, unlike many owners who imposed unreasonable restrictions on the copying of Welsh manuscripts, he was always ready to allow them to be consulted. He once wrote to a literary Welshman that he had several poems written by a bard named "A'i Cant." This was just as if a person had made a collection of paintings, and in writing to a connoisseur had said he had a considerable number of pictures painted by a man called "Pinxit." [Laughter.] In this case the manuscripts had fallen into good hands, but how frequently did it happen otherwise? Many a collector would put more heart into his work if he knew that his antiquities might be acquired by a National Museum. Another danger to which Welsh manuscripts were liable was one which could hardly arise in connection with a National Museum, viz.: the danger from fire. The magnificent Raglan collection of manuscripts in South Wales had been destroyed by fire; the Wynnstay Library in North Wales had been similarly destroyed, and in these and other conflagrations a great number of manuscripts, which could never be recovered, had been lost to the nation. Then there were a large number of manuscripts in the Record Office relating to Wales, which might be usefully handed over to a Welsh Museum. The records of the Second Cymmrodorion Society had been deposited at the British Museum because there was no Welsh institution to receive them. The records of Pembrokeshire had been sent to the Home Office for the same reason, and no one could now obtain access to them without waiting a long time, paying a large sum for transcripts, and undergoing other inconveniences. Welshmen were obliged to go through all these forms for permission to see their own Records. There were also the Ruthin Court Rolls and the Records of other Welsh Courts and Counties which could throw a flood of light upon the condition of Wales in the Middle Ages, but which would never see the light unless they could be transferred to Wales and dealt with by Welsh experts. At the present rate of progress at the Record Office, crowded as it was with documents and undermanned with officials, it would take centuries to overhaul the manuscripts relating to Wales, and he, hoped that the work would be given to an institution which could deal with them properly. He had said nothing about the scientific and utilitarian side of the museum. Some people regarded a museum as a mere storehouse of stuffed whales and bottled crabs and specimens of that description. They were evidently ignorant of the fact that in the countries where education was most successfully pursued, both for its own sake and for the material advantages it brought in its train, museums, libraries and art galleries occupied a much more important place than they did in this country. [Cheers.] Museums might be made in this country, as they were in America and other countries, of value to the trades and industries of the districts in which they were situated. He could give one instance to show how useful a museum might be made to Wales. In many mining districts mine shafts were sunk and abandoned. If mining companies were required to send to the local museum a tracing of the plans which they were already required by law to keep, showing the strata through which their shafts and drivings had passed, a quantity of information of great value to the miners of the future would be collected. A national library was the indispensable ally of a national museum. There was no country in the world where there was a greater love of reading among the peasantry. The literary aptitude they had shown in their local and national Eisteddfodau was proverbial. A nation which actually possessed a literary peasantry deserved to have a national library. An essential part of the Museum grant was the provision made in England, Scotland and Ireland for the establishment of galleries of art. Praiseworthy efforts had been made by a society, whose headquarters were at Conway, to establish the Royal Cambrian Academy of Art. That institution had been in existence for some years, and had done much for the cultivation of art in Wales. Their country was one of great natural beauty, many artists had made it their home, and it would be possible to create a school of art which would be a credit to the Principality. The great increase in art teaching, in consequence of the recent developments in technical instruction, had done much to stimulate and encourage natural talent in this direction. The objections to which he had referred had not been raised from the Treasury Bench. One objection, and one only, had been urged from that quarter to the proposal he had made last year and in 1894, which was in identical terms with the Motion now before the House. It was that Wales had no capital. But the Government did not surely expect them to create a capital for this particular purpose. The objection was merely put forward as a dilatory plea. What they asked was that the principle that Wales was entitled to the grant should be acknowledged, and then they would be quite ready, either through the University Court, or by means of a Joint Committee of Welsh County Councils, to formulate a scheme which would establish a museum in one part, a library in another part, and an art gallery in another part of Wales, all which would strengthen the museums and libraries now attached to University Colleges or otherwise, as might be found expedient. If they had one central and accessible spot, the difficulty would be solved, but as that did not exist, the important point was to ascertain the willingness of the Government to give them a reasonable share of the museum grant. They would then undertake to present a practicable scheme. The difficulty had been solved in higher education, and as this was also a purely educational question, it would not be hard to find a solution. The liberality of the Welsh people to educational institutions deserved acknowledgment. Was there a finer chapter in the educational history of any country than the efforts and sacrifices made by the Welsh people since the year 1880 for a complete system of education? What they asked was that that system should be completed in Wales as it had been completed elsewhere, by the adoption of those practical aids to teaching, and particularly scientific teaching, which had been found indispensable in other countries, and that a national museum, library and art gallery should be established to embody the historical, literary and artistic life of their country.

MR. J. M. MACLEAN (Cardiff)

said, his constituents were greatly interested in this question, and therefore he begged to intervene for only a few moments in the Debate. The Motion had been brought forward by the Mover and Seconder in speeches which must have greatly impressed the House. He was quite sure that Members, on whichever side of the House they might sit, were of opinion that a very clear case had been made out for giving a grant to Wales similar to that which was granted to Scotland and Ireland. He would not like to go so far as the Seconder of the Motion, and to say that Wales was a distinct country or nation, but there was no doubt that Wales was the home of a particularly-interesting people, who had traditions and records stretching far back, and it was most desirable to gratify in every way the legitimate desires of that people to have their national records collected in a museum of their own. It was perfectly plain that where they had large industrial populations, such as they had both in South and North Wales, their educational requirements ought to be consulted, not only in the establishment of schools and colleges, but by the institution of a museum of this kind; because it was essential to a complete educational system. They had already granted a University to Wales, and it was only right that they should give her a National Museum also. He thought, so far as the necessity for this museum went, the case for Wales had been clearly made out. But the Seconder of the Motion referred to an objection which he thought was one of a rather serious character, when he referred to the difficulty of fixing upon a capital in which the museum should be placed. He tried to get over the difficulty by saying, "Oh, give us the money, and we will distribute it in some way or other over Wales." It seemed to him (Mr. Maclean), that it would be fatal to the idea of a national system to distribute the collection through the different parts of the Principality. They must have a central site where it could be placed.

MR. J. HERBERT LEWIS

begged to state that the hon. Gentleman had mistaken him altogether. The suggestion he had made was that the National Museum should be in one place, the Art Gallery in another and a Library in a third.

MR. MACLEAN

continuing, said, that that would be a very awkward arrangement that people should be obliged to go to one place for the Museum, to another for the Art Gallery, and to a third for the Library. They all knew that Wales was not exactly a homogeneous country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Denbighshire, who was recognised as a leader of the Welsh Party opposite, told them the other evening that they on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, who sat for the great towns of Wales, only represented the English Colonies planted in the country; that the real Wales was to be found in the mountains, and that, in fact the Welsh population, as he represented it, consisted mainly of the hillside, or, as he supposed he should call them, the hilltop men. If that description were accurate, the best site for the museum would seem to be the top of Snowdon. But, of course, the bulk of the population really lived in the plains. There might be some rivalry amongst the different towns as to the site of this National Museum. He might be prejudiced in the matter, but he should say there was no town in Wales which could be compared for wealth, population and intelligence with the borough which he had the honour to represent. He dared say there would be competitors for the honour, just as there had been competitors for the honour of the birthplace of the poet Homer. What they really wanted was a National Museum, a Library and an Art Gallery established in Wales. He would suggest, as the best way of attaining that end, that there should be a conference of Welsh Members on both sides of the House to try and settle one way or the other where these institutions should be placed. In conclusion, he said he thought that this was a Motion which was worthy of their utmost sympathy.

SIR J. T. D. LLEWELYN (Swansea Town)

thought that the difficulty raised as to the location of these institutions was easily got over, as was shown by the case of the British Museum, the library of which was in Bloomsbury, while the natural history building was situated in South Kensington. He wished to bear his testimony to the real desire there was in Wales for strengthening the museums that now existed. There were various ways in which a museum might be made to do good work in the educational advancement of the people. His experience was that the mineralogical and geological sections of a museum were especially instructive. People that would go with open mouths through other portions of the museum exhibited the greatest interest when they came to a department in which they found an exemplification of what they had learned in the technical schools. The geological section was always a centre of interest to young people. Museums, therefore, did great good in the places in which they were established; and the State did well to make grants for their maintenance and growth. Their growth was not much, but it was illustrated by the increasing uses to which they were put by the people. In Wales, however, the museums that did exist were starved for want of support.

SIR G. OSBORNE MORGAN (Denbighshire, E.)

said, his hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff had raised a difficulty as regards the site of the museum, with which it would not be difficult to deal. First let them get the grant, and if they got the grant he would undertake that the question of the site of the museum would be speedily settled, just as had happened in the case of the Welsh University Colleges. Every Welshman need be very thankful to his hon. Friend, the Member for East Glamorgan, for the way in which he had brought forward the Motion. But there was one phrase of his hon. Friend to which he took exception. It was the statement that Welshmen formed one of the oldest partners in the Imperial system. They were not only one of the oldest, but they were by far the oldest. Their ancestors had developed a very high civilisation at a time when the ancestors of English Gentlemen opposite lived in mud huts and ran wild in the woods, like the "noble savage" in the poem. [Laughter.] Welshmen did not grudge Scotland and Ireland their grants. But they said they were as distinct a nationality as these countries—indeed that they were a more distinct nationality than these countries. ["Hear, hear!"] They therefore did not make an ad misericordiam appeal for the grant, but claimed it as a matter of justice. ["Hear, hear!"] A museum was a great help to the education of the people. It was a sort of living education. He did not know anything that would help popular education more than a museum. And as there were no people in the whole of the United Kingdom who valued education more highly than the Welsh people; or who, during the past 15 or 16 years, had made greater sacrifices for education, he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council—urged as he was to do so from both sides of the House—would obtain a grant from the magnificent surplus at the disposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to enable them to set up a National Museum in Wales.

MR. STANLEY LEIGHTON (Shropshire, Oswestry)

was glad to associate himself with the Motion before the House. If the right hon. Gentleman would consent to modify it, in a way which he would indicate later on, he would heartily vote for it. He did not think the hon. Gentlemen who supported the Motion had stated the case for the Motion to the full. Indeed, in some respects they had understated the case. His right hon. Friend the Member for East Denbighshire, said that Wales was a distinct nationality. Why there were four distinct nationalities in Wales. First there was North Wales, where the pure blood of the ancient Britons and the classic language of the Celts were to be found—a language which was no more understood by the second nationality, the people of South Wales, than they of North Wales could understand the bastard, mongrel, provincial dialect of the South. [Laughter and cries of "No, no!"] Then there were the English-Welsh, or the Welsh-English who were as Welsh as the monoglot Celts, and who formed the increasing majority of the nation. The fourth distinct nationality were those who represented the Flemings of Pembrokeshire, the little England beyond Wales. The Welsh were a little divided among themselves. Antipathy was sometimes shown in South Wales to Members from North Wales who addressed meetings there; but that was a feeling which he hoped would be got rid of to some extent by the institution of museums. [Laughter.] As it took longer to go from Holyhead to St. David's than from Dublin to Paris, the difficulty in the way of establishing a museum hinged on the situation. But he thought he could solve the difficulty. There was a capital of Wales. It had been made a capital by general consent and not by Act of Parliament. He referred to Pengwern Powis, re-christened Shrewsbury [laughter], the central meeting place for Welshmen, whither the Welsh tribes went up together, if not to worship at least to talk, a sort of Welsh Jerusalem [laughter]. There was the great school of the West—Shrewsbury School—founded by the Welsh dynasty of Owen, sometimes erroneously called Tudor. [Laughter.] The history of the town abounded in instructive Welsh reminiscences. There, the Separatist King David was condemned by the Parliament of Acton Burnell to be hanged, drawn and quartered, a warning to Separatist Statesmen. [Laughter.] The alteration in the Motion which he would suggest was that the words "in Wales" be left out, in order to add "in some town accessible to all the inhabitants of Wales, and that Shrewsbury is the most convenient centre for a grand National Museum for the Principality." [Laughter.]

MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

said, that there was a very strong feeling throughout the whole of the Principality in favour of having this National Museum; and while Scotland and Ireland were receiving £48,000 a year towards such objects Wales did not receive a single penny. Even larger contributions were made by the Governments of many foreign countries, notably Switzerland. Wales had not shown herself unworthy of or unable to appreciate such an institution as was desired; indeed, there was a strong literary feeling pervading the Welsh people. As to the purposes of this museum, it should be artistic, a storehouse for historical MSS., and a national library. In a recent number of the Nineteenth Century on a Public Record Office, Dr. Jessop had pointed out that such an office should not only be a warehouse for the safe custody of ancient muniments, but should be a library of reference open to all wishing to pursue serious research. Young men in Wales had often applied to him for assistance to pay their fares to London, in order that they might pursue some form of study at the British Museum. A national library would be a great boon to Wales. But was it the fact that Wales received towards educational objects so much money from the Exchequer as to invalidate her claim to a few thousands for a museum? Ireland received towards education £1,128,000, and with a population of 4,704,000 that came to 5s. per head. In addition she received £32,000 annually towards the Dublin and other museums. Scotland received £1,090,000 towards education, and a very large grant towards the Edinburgh Museum as well. Wales received towards education £315,000 per annum, and with a population of about 1,500,000 that came to 4s. per head. Wales received no additional grant for museums. Even if Wales were assumed to be as rich a country as England, this would be a great injustice; but Wales was really very much poorer, as was shown by an interesting return issued in 1892. In the year 1883, England paid for Income Tax under Schedule A at the rate of £6 4s. 2d. per head, while Wales paid at the rate of £4 8s. 1d. per head. Under Schedule D, England paid £9 11s. per head, while Wales paid £4 7s. In 1890, England paid under Schedule A £5 14s. 10d. per head, and Wales £2 1s. 1d. Under Schedule D, England paid£10 1s. 3d., and Wales paid £4 18s. 1d. Thus, as far as Income Tax returns went, Wales was not half as wealthy as England. In 1888–9, the amount of Treasury subventions paid to England was £803,688, or at the rate of 7½d. per head of the population. The amount paid to Wales in the same year was £36,624, or at the rate of 5¼d. per head of the population. If in this respect Wales received as much as England according to population, there would be an annual sum of £12,500 available, which would be nearly enough to build and equip a National Museum. But Wales had another plea besides poverty. Welshmen asked for help because they had helped themselves. Great sacrifices had been made by the Welsh people in the past for educational and literary purposes; and they appealed on the ground of simple justice for a favourable consideration of this claim.

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir JOHN GORST,) Cambridge University

said, that the museums which were under the direction of the Committee of the Council of Education were of a purely educational character. The Vote for their maintenance was included in the Educational Vote. He mentioned this because some hon. Members spoke as though the museum which they desired were to be a branch, not of the South Kensington Museum, but of the British Museum. If that were their intention, it was not covered by the Resolution. The Trustees of the British Museum were just as much interested in the antiquities and archæology of Wales as in those of any other part of the United Kingdom, and any valuable Welsh relics for which no suitable home had been found would find a fitting place of safety in the British Museum. But this Motion was probably made to secure for Wales a fair share of the grant for educational purposes. Now the museums established under the Science and Art Department were intended, not only as museums of reference for students, but as centers from which the distribution of objects of art and science suitable to an educational museum might be made to every part of the United Kingdom, and in that distribution Wales received her fair share, and any addition made to the museums would be in the direction of increasing the number of objects which could be circulated among the towns of the country and so be brought home to the people of the United Kingdom. Why was there no distributing centre in Wales? For this reason. In Ireland they were united that Dublin was their capital, and for Ireland the centre of distribution was, consequently, Dublin. In Scotland, Scotchmen were united in thinking that Edinburgh was the proper centre for distribution, and for students to come to pursue their studies. In England, London had, for this purpose, been chosen as the capital of England and Wales, for Wales had always been more intimately associated with England than Scotland or Ireland. He did not say the time might not come when it might be desirable to have a distributing centre for Wales to which Welsh students might resort to pursue their artistic and scientific studies. But this time had not come yet, because there was not yet a centre for educational purposes in Wales. When his predecessor made a sympathetic promise on the subject in 1894, he asked for the capital. When the subject was again raised in the short Session of 1895, he himself asked for the capital, and he was told there would be little delay in providing it, and he said at that time that the great obstacle in the way of dealing with the matter was that there was no particular place in Wales in which the Committee of Council on Education might place a museum if the Chancellor of the Exchequer provided the funds. There had been a good deal of development of Welsh education lately, and there was lying on the Table a Scheme for establishing a Central Board of Education for Wales. He looked with interest and curiosity to see where it was proposed that this Board should meet, as, probably, that might be the best place in which to erect a central museum for Wales, but he found that the Board was to meet in Shrewsbury in the County of Salop. [Laughter.] He presumed that the Board would determine what was to be the educational capital of Wales. When this was decided he promised hon. Members for Wales that the subject for erecting a Welsh central museum in the place decided upon would be given serious consideration. The right hon. Member for Denbigh said, "Give us the grant first and we will find the capital afterwards." [Cheers.] Hon. Members who had never been official Members cheered that, but he should have thought the right hon. Gentleman would have known better, because if he himself were to go to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a grant to erect a museum, the first question asked would be—"Where is it to be erected?" and if the answer could not be given, he expected the Chancellor of the Exchequer would summarily dispose of the application. No doubt the Central Education Board would determine what the educational capital of Wales was to be. When this was settled, the Educational Department would consider the propriety of establishing a museum there. He was unable to support the Resolution, not merely because it was inaccurate to say Wales received no share of the museum grants of the United Kingdom—for she received the same share as Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, or any of the great cities outside London received—but because the Resolution, if carried, would render necessary a revision of the Estimates and some amount being placed on the Estimates to carry it out. No such sum could be obtained at the present time for the reasons he had given. He did not say this was an insuperable objection, but the Department must first know where the money was got from. They could not have the grant first and decide upon the capital afterwards; they must settle upon the capital, and then ask for the grant. He hoped this Statement, which he made on behalf of the Committee of Council on Education, would be satisfactory to the hon. Members who raised this Debate.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)

The case has been so well stated by gentlemen who have much more knowledge of the subject than I have, that I would not have intervened in the Debate if the right hon. Gentleman opposite had not pointedly appealed to me. But, from the information I have, I think I can answer the only objection he has to this Resolution, and that conclusively. He says—"You must find your capital before you get your grant." Well, in commercial operations, we know that when the interest is guaranteed we find the capital is often found. [Laughter and "Hear, hear!"] I will give him a practical illustration of a case where the circumstances were extremely similar. I am told that in 1882 the money was sanctioned for University Colleges in Wales. There was then a contest between various towns which claimed to have the Colleges. The matter was referred to arbitration, and it was determined that the two University towns should be Bangor and Cardiff. Thereupon the money was given. ["Hear, hear!"] The right hon. Gentleman asks me, as a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, to endorse his doctrine. I am sorry I must contradict it altogether. If arbitration is resorted to in this case, no doubt a wise decision will be taken. The right hon. Gentleman raises no objection on the score of money. If the objection the right hon. Gentleman has made is the only one he has to offer, I will only say that, according to the measure of my means, when I was at the Treasury I did what I could. Those means were not very abundant, but the argument which influenced me most of all was that out of her limited resources no part of the Kingdom had made greater exertions for education than Wales. That was my opinion when I was at the Treasury. It is my opinion now, and I think the Treasury should help those who help themselves, and that from that standpoint Wales has a claim on the Treasury. The demand made is not great; the difficulties raised are not well founded, and I hope, in these circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman opposite will not object to recording this Resolution in favour of Wales having a central museum for educational purposes. Such a museum, to be of use to people who are not rich, must be close at hand. To say that the British Museum is available to the people of Wales is like saying anyone can have turtle soup who can afford to pay for it. But where you have a country where education is valued, and where the people are not rich, it is above all things necessary that the means of their education should be available to them and close at hand. [Cheers.] In these circumstances he hoped that there would be no objection on the part of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to allow this Resolution to be recorded, because he was sure that if they had the will they had the means to carry it into effect. ["Hear, hear!"]

SIR JOHN LUBBOCK (London University) rose to assure the hon. Member for Flint that the trustees of the British Museum took great interest in Welsh antiquities. He had heard with much surprise some of the arguments used for the Motion. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Denbigh spoke of the inhabitants of Wales as a nation. Did he mean that they were a single homogeneous people? That had been answered by the hon. Member for Shropshire. Did he mean that they were a race separate from that of the rest of our countrymen? Surely he would not deny that the majority of the Welsh belonged to the same race as the people of Cornwall, Brittany, Ireland, and West Scotland. The idea of those who supported the Motion seemed to be to have a single museum and library in some one city to be hereafter determined. He thought this was a mistaken ideal. For purposes of research it was best to have one great National Museum for the whole country; on the other hand, for educational purposes, it was better to have small typical collections and libraries, like the public libraries of our cities, in as many centres as possible. [''Hear, hear!"]

The House divided:—Ayes, 185; Noes, 118.—(Division List No. 10.)