HC Deb 13 August 1896 vol 44 cc753-5
*SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in view of the fact that the "Reform" leaders in Johannesburg still in prison were undoubtedly under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that a promise of protection was given by Her Majesty's representative, whether the right hon. Gentleman could see his way now to making some representation in their favour to the Boer Government?

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

That is only part of the Question.

*SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

I am willing to address the whole of my Question to the right hon. Gentleman if he wishes it.

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

I think he had better.

*SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

I was not aware that he was so anxious for the whole of it. The rest of the Question was whether, in reply to the representations of the High Commissioner urging the immediate laying down of their arms, the Reform leaders used this expression:—"The people of Johannesburg place themselves and their interests unreservedly in the hands of the High Commissioner, in the fullest confidence that he will see justice done to them."

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

In reply to the first part of the hon. Member's Question, I have to refer him to what I have already said—that if the two gentlemen still in prison will petition the Government of the South African Republic, as their fellow-prisoners did, I shall be glad to support their petition by my friendly offices. As regards the second part of the Question, I desired that he should put it, because I thought he was under a misapprehension, and now he has put it in a different form from that in which it was sent to me.

*SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

No.

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

Yes; I have his letter. What the hon. Gentleman asked me by letter was "whether the Reform leaders when they laid down their arms, did not say that they 'placed themselves in the hands of the High Commissioner, in the fullest confidence that he would see justice done to them.'"

*SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

Exactly what I have said.

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

No; the hon. Member really does not know what he did say. [Laughter.]

*SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

I beg pardon. These were the identical words. ["Order!"] I must claim my right to explain. The words which I sent to the right hon. Gentleman were taken from a document which I hold in my hand, and are exactly the same as those which I read to the House. I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to disprove that.

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

I accept the challenge. The words which he has just put into his question are "whether the Reform leaders did not say that the people of Johannesburg place themselves," etc. There is a very important distinction. What my hon. Friend asked me by letter was "whether the Reform leaders did not say," etc, the implication being that they were making a condition that they should not be put upon their trial.

*SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

The Reform leaders were people of Johannesburg.

MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN

As a matter of fact, early on the 7th of January the secretary of the Reform Committee sent a telegram to the High Commissioner, the last sentence of which was in the following words:—"The people of Johannesburg place themselves and their interests unreservedly in the hands of your Excellency in the fullest confidence that you will see justice done to them," and that has reference to the reforms for which the people of Johannesburg were agitating. At 4 o'clock in the afternoon of the same day, the same secretary-telegraphed to the High Commissioner, "We have surrendered our arms unconditionally."

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