HC Deb 11 August 1896 vol 44 cc563-6

(1.) This Act shall apply to Scotland with the substitution of the Secretary for Scotland for a Secretary of State.

MR. T. M. HEALY

moved to add to the clause the words— And any expenses incurred in carrying this Act into effect in Ireland shall be defrayed out of the poor rate.

MR. BIGWOOD

said he had no objection to the Amendment.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said the clause at present provided that these expenses should be defrayed out of the grand jury cess. The grand jury had nothing whatever to do with the poor rate, and they surely could not impose such an expenditure upon them. The boards of guardians had to do with the poor rate.

MR. T. M. HEALY

hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not make this Bill contentious. [Laughter.] He submitted that it was only fair that the landlord should pay half the amount. ["Hear, hear."]

*THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. WODEHOUSE)

having put the question that the words proposed should be added,

*MR. W. E. M. TOMLINSON (Preston)

, seated and with his hat on, said that if these words were omitted the clause would not work.

Mr. T. M. HEALY

Order, order! That is not a point of order.

*THE CHAIRMAN (MR. WODEHOUSE)

The Committee have the right to decide the question submitted to them.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL

On the point of order, Sir—

An hon. MEMBER

Order, order! Put your hat on. [Laughter.]

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

, amid general laughter, passed the hon. and learned Member a hat.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL

, seated and with a hat on, said that as be understood the Amendment it was to substitute for the words "grand jury cess" the words "poor rate." If that was so the Committee would be in a very difficult position. [Cries of "Order!"]

MR. T. M. HEALY

, seated and with his hat on, submitted that this was a matter for Debate, and not a point of order.

*THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. WODEHOUSE)

said that as he understood the Amendment it would be open to the Committee to strike out the words "poor rate" and to insert the words "grand jury cess" by a subsequent Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 44; Noes, 149.—(Division List, No. 409.)

MR. T. M. HEALY

moved that Progress be reported. [Cheers.] The conduct of the Government had not been fair. They intervened in a Bill which was not a Government Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had robbed Ireland of three millions—[a laugh]—opposed their getting a division of the rates between the owner and the occupier. He held that the Government had no business to interfere. It was not their Bill. Why should the whole rate be placed on the unfortunate farmer, who had dothing to gain by this Bill?

SIR W. HARCOURT

said it was distinctly understood that Bills of this kind which were to be advanced were to be of a non-contentious character. According to the decision which had been taken, no expenses could he provided for under the Bill from any source. The words proposed to be altered were— And any expenses incurred in carrying this Act into effect in Ireland shall be defrayed out of the grand jury cess. The proposal was to strike out the words "the grand jury cess." ["No!"] Let them know how the question stood. How was the question put?

*THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. WODEHOUSE)

That— any expenses incurred in carrying this Act into effect in Ireland shall be defrayed out of the poor rate. ["Hear, hear!"]

SIR W. HARCOURT

Quite so; they had negatived the words, and they could not put in poor rate or grand jury cess. There was no provision for expenses, and, therefore, it was not worth while to proceed with the Bill. [" Hear, hear."] It was quite plain that, having got into this impasse, the Government ought to accept the motion to report progress.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said that the Leader of the House, who was absent for the moment, had said that these Bills were only to be proceeded with if they were non-contentious. As a point of contention had arisen it would be better to accept the motion. [Cries of "No!"]

MR. BIGWOOD

said that the contention could be settled by leaving Ireland out of the scope of the Bill. The Measure was mainly intended to deal with a nuisance in Middlesex and the other home counties.

MR. T. M. HEALY

said that he should not oppose that proposal, but he should like to hear a statement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer before withdrawing his Motion.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said that he had endeavoured to prevent the Bill from being turned into an absurdity. [Mr. HEALY: "Everything in Ireland is an absurdity."] The proposal of the hon. Member was to intrust the power under the Bill to the grand jury, and to place the expenses on a rate over which the grand jury had no control. The Government had no objection to Ireland's being struck out of the Bill.

Motion to report progress by leave withdrawn; clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.