§ *MR. H. O. ARNOLD - FORSTER (Belfast, W.)rose to move the following Resolution:—
That the failure of successive administrations to give employment in civil departments to reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good character is contrary to public policy and detrimental to the interests of the service, and that this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to make larger provision for the employment of such persons by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public service as they are competent to fill.(At this point an unsuccessful attempt was made to count out the House.) The 1413 hon. Member, proceeding, said what he wanted to show was that, first, there was a neglect of a public duty in regard to the treatment of discharged soldiers and sailors; secondly, that there was a grievance unremedied; and, thirdly, that there was a possible method of fulfilling the duty and getting rid of the grievance. This was no new matter. There had been Commissions which had reported from 1876 to 1895, and very little had been done. They owed a duty to the soldier and the sailor, and they never owed it more clearly than at the present time. They made and they marred the soldier's career. Formerly they had 21 years' service followed by a pension; but they had substituted a term of seven years' service—a term which might suit the interest of the Army, but which was disastrous as regarded the man. They took him at 18, kept him up to 25, and taught him absolutely nothing but the military duties he had to perform and a little elementary education. Germany, France, and Italy had to induce their men to re-engage, and they recognised that a man after he left the service should not be left to toss about on the waves of society. He did not accuse the War Department with being lax, or even careless in the matter, but the good will, which he had found abundantly, had not done what was wanted. The number of men discharged into the Reserves varied every year from 15,000 to 17,000. How many of the total discharged were without employment they could not say, but they could get at the number employed., The Discharged Soldiers' Aid Society did much. ["Hear, hear!"] During last year over 4,000 had been placed out of 17,000 discharged. Then there were the regimental associations, and they had also done a great deal. There had also been a good deal done by some of the Government offices; but, after all, much remained to be done. Many of the men employed were insufficiently paid, and two-thirds of the candidates sent up by the Soldiers Aid Society to the authorities of the Metropolitan Police had been rejected. That statement seemed incredible, but it was absolutely true. The moral of it was we were not getting the proper material for our Army, nor would we get it until we were able to offer the inducement that our soldiers 1414 would obtain employment after they left the service. The eulogies which were frequently indulged in by Inspecting Officers and, in after-dinner speeches and in newspaper articles of the physique of the recruits who were now entering the service must be largely discounted. The average manhood of the country was not fairly represented in the Army. The proof of that contention was found in the fact that, when a battalion had to be made up for foreign service, the melancholy process of selection had to be resorted to, for many of the men in the service were unfit to undertake the arduous duties of a campaign. To remedy that sad state of things, one thing was absolutely necessary. There must be some certainty of employment for soldiers on their discharge. A man would very much prefer to invest his money at 2½ per cent. in Consols than in 10 per cent. Turkish Bonds, for he knew the former was a certainty, and though the work that was done by the Discharged Soldiers' Aid Societies and such voluntary associations was excellent so far as it went, it was nothing like enough, and a soldier, on enlisting, had no assurance whatever that his career, after he had passed in course of time into the Reserve, might not be rendered unhappy by the misfortune of want of employment. What was good for the service was good for the country. He had heard that in one regimental district, which had a distinguished regiment attached it it, the mere fact that an effort was made to secure employment for the men on their discharge had greatly increased the quality of the recruiting throughout the district. In France, in order to get over the difficulty experienced in getting men to re-engage, the military authorities had enlarged their powers for giving employment to discharged soldiers. The result was that the enlistments rose from 19,000 to 20,000, the maximum number required for the whole service of the French Army. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North - East Manchester made, when Postmaster General, a suggestion in regard to the employment of discharged soldiers in the Post Office, which, unhappily, had not been acted upon. That suggestion was, that when boys had passed the initial stage of telegraph messengers, they should then go 1415 into the Army, and after having served in the Army should be restored to the Post Office as messengers.
§ SIR JAMES FERGUSSON (Manchester, N. E.)said, that suggestion was made before his time, and he had thought it would be unjust to require the boys to enter the Army. What he had suggested was that boys, who, after six years in the telegraph service enlisted in the Army, should have a preferential right to re-engagement in the Post Office after they had left the Army.
§ *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid he understood the arrangement, and he regretted that even that plan had never been carried out, and that no other plan had been substituted for it. In fact, the area of employment of discharged soldiers in the Post Office had been curtailed instead of being extended. A very valuable Return had recently been furnished as a result of inquiries into the mode in which this important question was settled in continental armies. In Austria-Hungary £2,300,000 was available for payments to discharged soldiers in respect to offices to which they had a preferential right. In France, as he had already said, 24,000 men were induced to re-engage by the prospect of employment when they had completed their service. The right of a soldier to employment in France was so strong that, if he could not obtain a place, owing to the exigencies of the public service at the time when his discharge was due, he was allowed to remain on in the service until the office to which he was entitled by law became vacant. In Germany 92,000 places in State Departments were reserved for old soldiers. In Italy, which was a poor country, and therefore could not proceed on the same lavish scale as France and Germany, 8,000 places were reserved for old soldiers of good character and conduct. He did not say that we should emulate the action of the great Continental military monarchies, but he did say that we, no less than they, had a duty to perform in the matter, and that that duty was not performed. It was a humiliating confession to have to make that, though the House of Commons had again and again passed Resolutions in favour of the employment of discharged soldiers by the State, and that though Committees appointed to 1416 inquire into the matter had unanimously made similar recommendations, practically nothing had been done by any of the Departments, save the Military and Naval, to give effect to the wishes of the House. The proper course for the House to adopt was to pass a Mandatory Instruction to the Departments to select a proportion of their offices which should, under the authority of Parliament, be given to discharged soldiers who were competent to fill them, and that an official should be appointed charged with the special duty of seeing that that instruction was carried into effect. It was said by those who professed to represent the views of the working classes that those classes would object to any extension of the employment of soldiers or sailors as a matter of right. Even if the working classes took up such an attitude, it should not be allowed to interfere with the performance of a plain public duty; but he was convinced from experience that no section of Englishmen had so little regard for the welfare of the Empire as to put themselves in opposition to a reform of this kind if they found it was a necessary patriotic duty. Over and over again he had addressed large bodies of working men on Army questions, and he had never heard the slightest objection raised to the contention that our soldiers ought, as a matter of right, to have the prospect of employment after they left the service. If there were any working men who took the opposite view, he would point out to them that they really ought to bless the service which withdrew 20,000 or 30,000 men every year from the competition of the labour market, and thus increased their own chances of obtaining employment. After all, the men who came back were but as a mere drop in the ocean of the labour market, and surely we had not arrived at such point in our social economy that the 2,000, or 3,000 men at the outside, who might enter annually the London labour market for instance, could so upset the calculations of the great Trade Unions or of those interested in the bestowal of labour on their clients that they could not afford to leave them out of account. It was, he was persuaded, to the interest of all that the present cruel system should not be allowed to continue. ["Hear, hear!"] 1417 In the first place, they must perform the duty to the soldier in the interest of the soldier, of the Army, and of the country; and, in the second place, they ought to show that they would not tolerate the persistent and eternal neglect of the clearly expressed wishes of the country. ["Hear, hear!"] He moved the Motion which stood in his name.
§ *CAPTAIN NORTON (Newington, W.)seconded the Motion. He said that, though many years had elapsed since he was connected with one of the branches of the regular Army, he still took in the service a very deep interest. He, in common with his soldier colleagues, felt that past Governments had failed in their duty and in their responsibility to the soldiers and sailors. He maintained that those who had served their country had a special claim on the community, for they relieved others of a responsibility, every able-bodied man in the country being liable to serve in the Militia. It might he said there was no great, hardship and inconvenience to the man who joined the service, because usually he was a man who liked a life of change and adventure. But that the bulk of mankind did feel it an inconvenience was incontestably proved by what took place on the Continent—men mutilated and maimed themselves in order to escape service. His hon. Friend had referred to the effect on the labour market of the carrying out of this Resolution. He could corroborate the hon. Gentleman's statement that the bulk of the working population of the country were by no means averse to the ex soldier and sailor obtaining employment. They were averse, however, to a certain class of employers taking advantage of the ex-soldier and sailor to break down the labour market generally. There were some employers who said to the old soldier: "You have a pension of some 7s. a week, a living wage is taken to be 24s., therefore, if you are willing to accept this employment, I will pay you 17s. a week." That was the only point of view from which the labour party and the labour leaders were averse to the competition of the ex-soldier and sailor in the labour market. As to better treatment of soldiers, he held that, if the Government were to treat the men better they would obtain better 1418 material. It was clearly shown before the Committee to whose proceedings the hon. Gentleman had referred, that the tendency of the better treatment of the soldier during recent years had been to attract a higher type of men to the service. The service had become more popular. Formerly, the man who went for a soldier was looked upon almost as a disgrace to his family, but now they found respectable families proud to acknowledge that a son of theirs was serving in such a regiment. It had been said Government should be a model employer of labour. The result of the recent Inquiry went to show that naval men, owing to the fact that they were men of ready resource and of good physique, found very little difficulty in obtaining employment when they left the service. That was also the case with men of the artillery and cavalry. It was to the men of the infantry that the Government owed the greatest moral obligation, but the Government had really shunted their responsibility upon the public and upon general employers. The great railway companies had patriotically shown themselves willing to take Reserve men, and they would, indeed, be prepared to fill about one - eighth of their posts with such men if the men were fitted for the work. There was abundant evidence that old soldiers made good caretakers, watchmen, and storekeepers. What was to prevent the Government leaving such posts open exclusively to the ex-soldier? It had been conclusively proved, also, that a good soldier made a good policeman, and that one-eighth of the entire police force of the country could be supplied from the ranks of the ex-soldiers and sailors without any inconvenience to the force. These men, too, would make good prison warders, and there were some posts under Government, such as junior clerkships, and posts in the second division of clerks, for which they were well suited. There could be no reason why a certain proportion of these posts should not be filled by men who had left the service. During the last 20 years the number of men in the service who had obtained first-class certificates had trebled. Amongst those men there must be many who had still higher qualifications, and who were able, while serving, to improve themselves educationally. He suggested that a special 1419 examination should be instituted of a class similar to that passed by the second division clerks, and that there should be added to it voluntary subjects, such as book-keeping, shorthand writing, typewriting, and so forth. The men who passed in these subjects would thereby the better fit themselves for future employment. As to the question of character, it was pointed out before the Committee, that if the character on the discharge sheet were fuller, and special emphasis were laid on the fact whether the man was a sober man or not, a great many more employers would be prepared to take soldiers on all hands. It was acknowledged that occasional drinking outbursts were the great drawback of the ex-soldiers. In his opinion deferred pay should be absolutely done away with, for he was disposed to think it did not bring one extra man into the service, but often meant the downfall of a man. He suggested that pensions, instead of being paid qarterly to men not accustomed to handling much money, should be paid weekly through the postal authorities. Then, a good soldier not infrequently left the service under the impression that he would readily obtain employment in civil life; but, when he came to try, he met with bitter disappointment. A man was put into a trench alongside navvies, and his hands went to pieces to start with. As to building work, he could not climb ladders. There was a consensus of opinion on the part of employers of labour that the soldier was to a great extent disqualified in this way. The man who entered the Reserve should have the option within six months, with the approval of his commanding officer, of returning to his own corps, the commanding officer having the power, in the event of a man deteriorating, of rejecting him. He would further suggest that all regiments should have the power enjoyed by the Household troops of rejecting a man altogether from the service whose character was such as to be detrimental to the service at large. His last point was that the Government should begin at home, and do as the Mover of the Motion had suggested. Side by side with every recruiting poster in the country should be placed a statement riving the number of posts under 1420 Government, in each department, for which soldiers were specially eligible, and the qualifications required. This would act as an incentive to the best men in the country to join the service. This question should be regarded from a higher point of view than the sordid, economic one of supply and demand. We might spend millions on floating fortresses, and thousands on machine guns; but, after all man was the machine of machines, and all our resources would be wasted if confided to the care of men inferior in physique, intelligence, or morale. We ought to have as our national defenders men vigorous in all the pre-eminent characteristics of our race. What was it that made this country the finest in the world? Not its equable climate and its exuberant soil, its mineral wealth and its redundant rivers, but the fact that it was inhabited by a people, strong in physical and moral force, whose spirit was as high to-day as when our gallant seamen swept from the ocean the allied fleets of France and Spain—a people who had never seen a foreign flag except as a trophy, whose sons were building great cities and establishing gigantic industries in Australasian and South African deserts; and if we were to hold our worldwide Empire, with its ever-increasing responsibilities, it was the duty of our Government, as custodians of that Empire, to endeavour to attract to the service for its defence men fitted to uphold the national honour and protect the national interests. ["Hear, hear!"]
§ *SIR JAMES FERGUSSON (Manchester, N. E.)said he should have preferred to have waited until a Member of the Government had dealt with the complaint made and offered an explanation of the failure of successive Governments to give effect to the recommendations of Select Committees and do justice to the rank and file of the Army. He did not wish to speak of himself, but, having been a soldier in his youth, and taken an interest in the Army all his life, he had always had an earnest desire to do anything in his power to raise the character and standard of the men in the Army. He had long been convinced that, if proper inducements were held out to the respectable youth of this country to make the Army their profession for their early manhood, not only would 1421 the character of the Army be immensely raised, but the Army would be rendered much more valuable and reliable to the country, and a great benefit would be done to the civil population which the education of service in the Army would give to a large proportion of its youth. How was this to be done? By teaching the Army that it was held in honour, by teaching people that it was no disgrace for a young man to enter the Army, that he would not only get benefit while there, but when he left would be raised in the social scale. The time was, when a lad left home and entered the Army it was thought next door to his going to the devil. No doubt, formerly, the Army did largely consist of the refuse of the country. They made good food for powder. They had discipline, but not the kindness education and refinement which was the result of military service nowadays. Everyone knew how zealous our officers were to treat their men with consideration and induce them to behave well. Those efforts had been attended with good results. The Report of the Director General on recruiting showed that the Army was improving year by year, that an increased proportion of men of a respectable class were entering the service. That was to a large extent due to the wide diffusion of education, the great increase of population, and the overcrowding of many of the professions. This fact ought to argue in favour of giving an opportunity to those who after their service passed into civil life to obtain good employment in the service of the State. All were convinced on that point, and Members of consecutive Governments had held out many promises that greater things should be done to provide employment for soldiers. In these days, when men entered the Army at 17 or 18, 19 or 20, and at 25 or 26 passed into the Reserve, they were exactly of the age when they might fill excellently many posts in the Civil Service. Probably no one was better suited for employment in situations, where punctuality, obedience and regularity were required, than those who had been subjected to the strict discipline of the Army. Reference had been made to what the Post Office had done for soldiers. His predecessor 1422 as Postmaster General being anxious to improve the Post Office and assist in the employment of soldiers, made a regulation that telegraph messsengers should be engaged on condition of serving in the Army after completing their service as telegraph messengers. In that way not only would the Army have been supplied with boys who had already been well trained, but they would have been able to have given employment to a large number of Army reserve men. He calculated that at least 2,000 places a year would be given to reserve soldiers. He regretted to say, however, that immediately after he left the Post Office the scheme for giving employment to reserve soldiers was not carried out as one would have expected it would have been, and the numbers of such deserving men taken into the service decreased instead of increased. Instead of the 2,000 places which it was hoped would be offered to reserve soldiers, he found the number given in 1892 was 1,230; in 1893, 979; in 1894, 715; and in 1895, 589. As the Telegraph service increased, the number of messengers were greater, so that fewer places could be given to soldiers, and he spoke with authority when he said the Post Office could hardly be relied upon for soldiers at all. Thus the expectations which had been held out were disappointed. Looking to their civil departments, he declared that employment in well-paid offices had too long been regarded as a kind of outdoor relief for domestic servants. It was absolutely wrong that domestic servants should get jobbed into this sort of public employment, whilst those who had served Her Majesty in the Army and Navy in every clime and amid every danger should be left to walk the streets unemployed. It might be said that only a small number could be employed in that way, but he was quite sure that in that House and in public offices of every kind an immense number of non-commissioned officers could be employed to the benefit of the Army and the public service at large. This Session he had put his finger on a grievance affecting the Army which, he thought, was a real one. He had asked several questions upon the subject, but so far he had been met in what he could not but describe as an unworthy way. By the Police Act of 1423 1890 it was provided that every man who had been employed in any pensionable department who entered the police force, whether paid by that House or by the Police Fund, should be entitled to count his previous civil service towards his pension, but soldiers and sailors were not accorded the same privilege. Such a grievance, he should have thought, only required to be mentioned to be instantly remedied, but, so far, no move had been made in the direction of putting soldiers and sailors in the same position as their confreres. He asked the Home Secretary about the matter, and he at once admitted the hardship of the case, but said the Treasury had a great objection to pensioning men partly by the War Department and partly by the Civil Department. He then went to the Secretary to the Treasury from whom he received a sympathetic response, and a promise to look into the question. After waiting for some months without hearing anything he put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the previous night, but the answer did not appear in the public journals. He supposed it was not sent to the newspapers as Ministers' answers, as a rule, were, and he would not quote it at length as he might not be able to do so accurately. It was sufficient to say that one of the main reasons for not applying the remedy asked for was to the following effect: That if soldiers entering the police were allowed to count their time in the Army for pensions, then pensioners from the Army who were now allowed to draw their pensions in addition to their civil pay, could not be any longer allowed to do so. That was a Departmental answer of the kind of which it used to be said, "Oh! it is good enough for the House of Commons." There were police officers in that House who had served 20 years in the Army, who would have to serve seven years more than their confreres, and all over the country there were policemen who had been in the Army serving side by side with men who had been in the Post Office, the Customs Department, and so forth, and while the latter could count their former service for a pension the ex-soldier could not. That was a manifest injustice, and a direct discouragement to the best class 1424 of recruits for the police. When the Secretary to the Treasury objected to this mixing up of the pensions of different Departments, he would refer to the evidence given before the Committee on the Employment of Soldiers, in which it was stated that when the late Mr. Raikes formed the scheme for passing the telegraph messengers into the Army before they received permanent employment in the police, the Treasury consented to their Army time counting for pension in their Post Office service. He, therefore, said that the answers given for putting off this remedy were most flimsy and devoid of any substance or justification at all. When those who earnestly desired to benefit the service and to support the Government were met in this way by a non possumus, it was not surprising they were compelled to vote for a Resolution to which the Government might possibly object, but which he and others who shared his views felt it their bounden duty to support.
§ *MR. A. M. BROOKFIELD (Sussex, Rye)would like to say a few words on this question, as he had the honour of drafting the Report of the Committee which recently sat on this subject. He believed that neither the mover, the seconder, nor the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had at all exaggerated the seriousness of this problem. He should say they had rather understated than overstated it. He believed the whole difficulty could be illustrated at the present moment by a glance at the Treasury Bench when this question, which was one of national importance, was left to the tender mercies of an Under Secretary, whose sympathies were known beforehand to be on the side of anything that could be done in his own department, whilst the Treasury and the Home Office were practically unrepresented, and the Front Opposition Bench deserted. Now the real crux of this difficulty was what to do with the 15,000, or 16,000, or 17,000 men who were annually passed into the reserve. Hitherto the only earnest attempts to deal with that question had been made by the National Association, which had done excellent work; by private individuals to some extent; by some of the great railway companies; and, to some small 1425 extent, by the War Office and the Admiralty; but never by Her Majesty's Government as representing the State. Their object that evening should be to put it before the Government and the country that this was a matter which concerned the State, and which should have State assistance. The attitude of the State had hitherto been one of masterly incompetence. They had always taken up the non possumus attitude of "We cannot do it; we only wish we could." What was the mysterious power behind the State that prevented their doing anything they pleased? He believed it was the permanent civilian officials, who, throughout all the controversy on this subject, had shown the most consistent hostility to the welfare of the soldier and sailor. There was no more lamentable instance of the sinister influence of the permanent official mind, than in the action taken with regard to the Post Office Enlistment scheme, as it was called. He did not believe the House or the country ever thoroughly understood what was done in regard to that matter. In 1891 the then Postmaster General, the late Mr. Cecil Raikes, with the full approval of the Treasury, decided that in future, when telegraph messengers reached the age of 18, they should be encouraged to enlist—in other words, their promotion should cease in the Post Office, but that if they chose to go into the Army and serve with the colours for five years they would find places kept for them on their return. The difficulty of concurrent service in the two Departments was got over in that case, for their service with the colours was to count as half-time service in the Post Office. He thought the country ought to understand the circumstances under which this excellent scheme was abandoned and reversed. When the right hon. Baronet the Member for North-East Manchester succeeded the late Mr. Raikes he took up this system with enthusiasm, but on a change of Government it was completely reversed on the ground that it had not succeeded. He believed it required the mind of a permanent official to prove that a thing had been unsuccessful when it had never been tried at all. Mr. Joyce, of the Post Office, who had distinguished himself by his consistent opposition to any plans for the 1426 employment of soldiers, gave evidence on this point before the Select Committee, and stated that not only was the scheme found to have a bad effect—that it had failed, in fact—but that it had never come into practical operation! This inconsistency, Mr. Joyce coolly explained, was more apparent than real, as it had been found that the dread of their sons having possibly to serve with the colours had begun to have a deterrent effect on what he considered the more respectable class of parents in letting their sons enter the telegraph service. Was it not conceivable that they might make the Army a more respectable calling if they provided for the future of those who went into the Army? This scheme by which large numbers of men of the Army reserve would have been provided for, had never been allowed a fair trial or a chance of being tried. He believed the hostility of the permanent officials and of a small number of Members opposite to the employment of old soldiers proceeded from the confusion they made between the soldier of the present day and the soldier of the past. He was not going to deny that the long service soldier of a quarter of a century ago was unfitted in many respects for certain forms of civil employment. But since that time not only had short service been introduced, but the social status of the soldier, and his educational and moral calibre had very greatly improved also. He thought, therefore, that hon. Members and officials who believed it their duty to oppose giving soldiers a chance of employment in civil life, ought more candidly to examine what he was likely to prove himself when he had a fair chance, instead of allowing their minds to dwell upon stories of the drunkenness and depravity of the old fighting animal of a bygone age. The present-day experience of the soldier's worth was entirely in favour of giving him a better chance. The practice in foreign countries was very different from that followed in England, and their experience of the employment of the soldier in civil life was strongly in favour of it. A short time since the Iron and Steel Trade Association sent an important delegation to Germany and Belgium to inquire into the reasons why those countries were able to compete so 1427 successfully with England in that industry, and in the Report they issued—a document which was not intended in the remotest degree to have any bearing on this question—it was stated that one of the explanations of that success was the superiority of the German over the English workman in his implicit discipline, and his clock-work obedience to the word of command in the workshop. That surely was an argument in favour of employing men who had done military service—who had been for years subjected to discipline. ["Hear, hear!"] He might quote, also, in support of the Resolution, from reports furnished by the Military Attaches at our Embassies abroad as to the employment of soldiers by Government Departments. He referred to the Paper marked "Commercial, No 5,1893." In a letter enclosing a Report to the Earl of Rosebery, Sir A. Paget, writing from Vienna, February 1, 1893, said:—
This system which, according to Colonel Dawson's Report, is largely practised in this Empire, would appear to be attended with the best results, and, if I may he permitted to offer an opinion, would be peculiarly beneficial in countries where the conscription does not exist, as offering an additional inducement to good men to enter the ranks of the Army.Lord Dufferin, writing to the Earl of Rosebery from Paris in January 1893, enclosing a Dispatch from Colonel Talbot, said:—Owing to the necessity of having well-qualified non-commissioned officers, soldiers who have already attained this grade are tempted to re-engage after the compulsory period of three years, by the special inducement, among others, of about 500 different descriptions of appointments being reserved for retired non-commissioned officers.Sir Edward Malet, in a Dispatch from Berlin in the same month, said that:—If State employment in the United Kingdom were assured to soldiers of good conduct after the completion of a certain number of years of service, the general public would gain largely through the increased efficiency of the service in those departments to which such soldiers were admitted.And lastly Lord Vivian, in a Dispatch from Rome on February 2, 1893, said:—The effect of this system is to popularise service in the Army and Navy, … and at the same time to provide a body of deserving men, trained to habits of order, sobriety, and 1428 discipline, for service in the public offices, without throwing any increased burden on the State. I cannot but think that, in view of the increasing difficulty of manning our Volunteer Army and Navy, the possibility of applying such a system in the United Kingdom is worthy of serious study.["Hear, hear!"] He had already admitted that the action of the War Office in this matter had been of a benevolent character, but the War Office and other Departments were powerless without assistance from the Treasury. Now, there were two points he would suggest for the consideration of the Government. One was that the Secretary of State for War should consider the feasibility of reserving the posts of officers' servants to men of the Army Reserve—["hear, hear!"]—and the other point was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should consider whether it would not be possible to remit altogether the tax on male servants in cases where the men employed belonged to the reserve, or were pensioners from the Army or Navy. If the Government persevered in its present attitude, the result would be not only considerable inefficiency in the services, but a feeling of exasperation which would find expression in the House as well as out of it. But he trusted Ministers would be induced to see the necessity of a new policy, thus removing what was really a disgrace to the country and a standing reproach to the Government of the day.
§ MR. H. E. KEARLEY (Devonport)said, he wished to dissociate the Opposition side of the House from the prejudice that everything connected with soldiers was disreputable. He had the greatest possible sympathy with the Motion, and in support of it he desired to say a few words on behalf of sailors. Having served the country for 20 years, they found themselves, at the early age of 38, unable to obtain any but the most casual employment at inadequate remuneration —employers taking advantage of the fact that they had a small pension. This was a most unfortunate result, considering their generally good characters, robust health, and willingness to work. Some expression of sympathy with them by an official representative of the Admiralty would be much appreciated. For himself he could not impress too strongly upon employers what a 1429 splendid body of men they were. In a business with which he was connected, employment had been given preferentially to sailors for a number of years, not only as doorkeepers but in other capacities, and some of the men had been found to possess such admirable qualifications that they had been risen to higher positions, and even to the control of departments; and the firm considered that they had been exceptionally fortunate in obtaining the services, at the early age of 30, of a number of men who had received a valuable training at the expense; of the country. If the Admiralty were to take some steps to make known to employers that such men were available they might find better employment for many of them. This would be beneficial not only to the men but also to the State itself. It must be detrimental to the services that there should be in the country a number of unemployed men who had served the State in the Army and Navy; and therefore both the State and the men would benefit by opening up better prospects on their discharge.
§ SIR H. HAVELOCK-ALLAN (Durham, S. E.)wished to reciprocate from the Ministerial side of the House what had been said as to the claims of the sailors. In no way were the Army and Navy more closely connected than the mutual desire that the services should be equally recognised and that the country should make provision for those who had honourably served it by land and sea. In this matter he was himself somewhat of a painful survival, because he brought the subject before the House on the 1st of May, 1876, by moving a Resolution on behalf of soldiers, sailors, and marines. The result was the appointment of a Select Committee, the results of whose inquiries anticipated what had been said to-night in support of this Motion. It was a reproach to successive Governments that in the meantime practically nothing had been done. The Committee of 1876 consisted of 23 selected Members of the House of Commons and was presided ever by Mr. Childers. It sat through the Session of 1876, and part of the Session of 1877, reporting in the July of that year. The Report stated:—
There is reason to believe that if it were understood that a considerable portion of civil 1430 employment were to be given to soldiers and sailors when their service had expired the effect on recruiting would be good, and some men of better stamp might be induced to enter the Army.Further, the Committee expressedThe earnest hope that their recommendations would be taken into consideration by the Departments concerned with as little delay as possible.That little delay had occupied the modest period of 20 years. ["Hear, hear!"] With the honourable exception of what had been done by the hon. Member for North-East Manchester, succeeding Governments had practically ignored that Report. ["No," from Mr. WOOD-ALL.] This question was entirely divested from all Party feeling. [Cheers.] It represented interests common, not only to every constituency, but to every class. The later Committee which reported in 1895, pointed out that since the Report of the Committee of 1876, the short service system had greatly developed, and the question had become more difficult; and that in view of the demand for higher wages, the carrying out of the recommendations of the Committee would not only increase the efficiency of the soldiers, but also be of great advantage to the State. He did not wish to impute any want of sympathy on this question to the present Government. Lord Lansdowne had shown an earnest desire to carry out the. recommendations of the Committees, and the Under Secretary for War was deeply impressed with the importance of this as a national question. But the cardinal point was that pointed out by the Committee—that since the introduction of the short service system, and 16,000 men were every year passing into the Reserve, the difficulty of the question had become greater. The employment of soldiers and sailors who had served 21 years had received some recognition. All that could be done was done; and at the War Office and Admiralty all the patronage was given to old soldiers and sailors. It was not of those Departments that complaint was made, but of the vis inertia of the other Departments. The crux of the question now was the employment of the Reserve soldier; and the greatest obstacle to the enlistment of a physically better class of men was this dire uncertainty as to 1431 civil employment at the expiration of the time with the colours. No complaint whatever was made of the moral calibre of the men in the Army at present. They were not at all deficient either in character or in zeal, but they were lamentably deficient in physique. There were some things which it was still in the power of the War Office to do, and in which they would have the support of the services of every right-thinking man in the country. By giving employment to reservists an end might be put to that evil so greatly deprecated, of battalions attenuated by men taken out of the active ranks for service. Then, in a Department with which the War Office had a great deal to do, there were many vacancies which ought to be exclusively given to Reserve soldiers— he referred to Woolwich Arsenal. There, some 12,000 men were employed, and though he did not say that old soldiers were capable of filling the places of skilled artisans, there were, undoubtedly, 4,000 or 6,000 places which might with great advantage be so filled. A still greater field of labour was the great railways, and in this connection he thought it would be worth while to have in the War Office an officer whose sole duty it should be to place himself in communication with the great railway companies for the purpose of finding places for large numbers of Reserve soldiers.
§ COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY (Shropshire, Newport)remarked that the friends of this cause would be in a far better position if successive Governments, even if they had not the power absolutely to give them the help they demanded, had, at all events given them the information they asked for. If they had a Return, showing exactly the amount of employment that had been given, the offices that were contributing to the employment of old soldiers and sailors, the replies given by the large industrial employers of labour to requests for employment, and, above all, gibbetting in public those firms which had declined to employ old soldiers and sailors, the position would be more satisfactory. It was a pity that information of that sort had not been eagerly given instead of being extorted from the reluctance of successive Governments. With reference to the trade education given to soldiers 1432 while in barracks, he reminded the House that we drew three parts of our recruits from the agricultural labouring population, and if it was remembered that it was essential, under present conditions, that these men should go back to agricultural labour, how absurd it was to think that in five or seven years, they could teach these men a trade which would stand between them and the necessity of reverting to agricultural labour. It was true that they were disqualified from taking front rank as agricultural labourers after they were discharged. We could not plough up the barrack yards, and we could not turn the Army horses into plough horses, so as to teach the soldiers to earn good agricultural wages after their time was over. It was not creditable to this country or to successive Governments that voluntary associations had to take the leading work in this matter. Reference had been made to regimental associations. They gave their regimental officers poor pay enough for the work they had to do, and yet they expected them to take the additional burden of contributing to find employment for the old soldiers who passed out of the ranks. Two-thirds of the old soldiers who applied for service in the police were rejected as unfit. That meant either that the treatment of the soldiers while in the ranks made them physically unfit, or that the standard of fitness in the Army was so poor that the soldier was physically unfit when he came in. On one or other horn of the dilemma they were impaled. He did not think the House realised fully the unfairness of the system as it now stood, as between the soldier and civil life. He would take two men, A and C. "A" was a young man of 18 years who joined the Army and served six years. At 24 he applied to go into the police force, and, being accepted, had to complete 26 years before he could get a pension. He would then be 50 years old, and would have served 32 years. His comrade of the same age, instead of serving in the Army, served six years in the Post Office. He was able to retire after 29 years and 9 months' service on a full pension. Take the case of a man who had served 12 years in the army, as compared with the man who had served the same number of years in the Post Office. As the 1433 service was now conducted, they placed a severe penalty on the soldier and sailor merely because they had served Her Majesty. There ought to be no hesitation in remedying this state of things by an official of a sufficiently high position, because it was grossly unfair and manifestly wrong. He hoped it was not likely that those who professed a willingness to do something for the soldiers and sailors would allow that state of things to continue. They had been asked for suggestions as to how the unfortunate officials were to render help in this matter. There were certain suggestions which might be offered. The limit of age in most Civil Service appointments was about 20. Would it not be possible to throw those appointments open to soldiers up to the age of 30? Again, candidates for certain divisions of the Civil Service should produce, along with their certificates of birth and good character, a certificate showing that they had served a sufficient amount of time in one of the services. Let the House consider the enormous benefit which would be done to our territorial regimental system if such an Amendment as this was introduced in our military and naval regulations. Supposing it were possible by a better-managed system to provide for employing in the same districts and the same territorial centres, soldiers discharged from the territorial regiments in the railway stations or the large factories in the local districts. The men would be largely supplied from the ranks of those who had passed through the territorial forces, and nothing would do so much to double or even treble our recruiting chances as such a system. The jealous, narrow-minded objections on the part of representatives of other sections of the labouring population had been demonstrated to be idle and foolish. The labouring population recognised that they themselves supplied a great quantity of these men, and they would not be slow to recognise that what would benefit this class of soldier, would benefit their own class both directly and indirectly. The outcome of their discussion must be an absolutely general acknowledgment that it was of paramount importance to this country to have a thoroughly effective Army. They wanted it to be effective not only by its 1434 physical capabilities, but by its intelligence, its power of adaptation in any circumstances in which our wars had to be waged. The Army was asking for increased intelligence and better education from the men who entered its ranks; but the authorities could not help acknowledging that in proportion as they got that increased intelligence and better education, they would find the men turning over the question in their minds, and asking, "what is to become of me after I have given the best years of my life to the State?" If it was found that the only answer they could give to the question was "I have to take my chance of occasional employment here and there," the soldiers would naturally say, "I will acquire this intelligence and better education, but I will use it where I can do so to better account." He hoped the House would not be put off with the dull, tiresome reiterations that something would be done at some time, but that it would hear some statement pointing to an immediate, definite, and decided advance on the lines they had invited the House to take in this Resolution.
§ *MR. W. WOODALL (Hanley)wished to utter a respectful protest against the assumption, for which he thought rather ungenerous expression had been given, that there was any difference of opinion between the Parties in that House, as to the importance of this question, or as to the continuity of its treatment by successive Governments. It would be an ideal state of things if, when inviting young men to enlist, they could give any kind of assurance that the soldier, after completing his term of service with the colours, would obtain suitable civil employment. No one who had any knowledge of this question in its practical aspects could suppose that that ideal could be realised in a free country like this. They were told that the young conscript on the Continent, after serving his term of compulsory service, went back to his employment, and that the discipline and order to which he had been subjected under military command rendered him more serviceable than ever. But it should be remembered that in Germany, France, and other countries the conscripts were drawn from all ranks of the people, whereas here our 1435 soldiers were drawn in the main from the ranks of unskilled workers, and during their term of service they were apt to forget even such skill as they might have acquired in some industrial employment or other before enlistment. They left the Army by no means so well qualified for civil employment as those who desired to serve them would wish. It was due to the late Mr. Stanhope to recognise in a very special manner the efforts which he made to benefit the discharged soldier. ["Hear, hear!"] There was a memorable meeting at the War Office at which he secured the presence and assistance of Sir Henry Oakley, and the representatives of the great railway companies. There could be no doubt that these gentlemen had behaved most patriotically, and taken infinite pains to find employment for old soldiers. Their experience was particularly valuable. It had established the fact that in certain departments of railway service the soldier was eminently useful, and that in others it was idle to attempt to put him in competition with the ordinary labourer. The soldier was a very good man in connection with the passenger service and as a porter, but according to Sir Henry Oakley he was not a satisfactory worker when set to the laborious tasks which were ordinarily performed by ruder men. With regard to what had been done by the Post Office, it was only just to Mr. Arnold Morley to say that he carried on the system initiated by Mr. Raikes, and continued by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, with a most earnest and sedulous desire to fulfil the wishes of that House. It was true that Mr. Arnold Morley had to abandon the idea of military service for telegraph messengers, but why? Because he found that the objection of parents to the condition that these youths should go into the Army was very strong, and that the supply of young men whose services he desired to secure fell off considerably. In every other respect the Post Office in recent years had done its very best. [Sir JAMES FERGUSSON: "The number of posts came down to 400 last year."] There could be no doubt that the Post Office had had to contend against the difficulties incidental to the soldiers' habits. It was vain to pursue ideals in the face of the substantial evidence which 1436 went to show that the practice regulating the payment of pensions did undoubtedly interfere most inconveniently with the men's discharge of their duties. The spirit of camaraderie which led a man who met an old companion-in-arms to drink with him incapacitated that man for the discharge of duties, which required regularity, trustworthiness, and punctuality. As messengers in public offices, as watchmen, care-takers and police, as well as porters at passenger stations, old soldiers were very desirable men, but when all the vacancies in those positions were filled there was still a large number of men for whom employment had to be found. It was suggested that contractors under Government should be appealed to to employ old soldiers; but here they were confronted with a difficulty. A Resolution of the House required a contractor for Government work to pay the current rate of wages, and in answer to such an appeal he would say:—"You require me to pay the current rate of wages. These men are good in their way, but they are not as competent as the labourers I desire to employ, and I am willing to pay them what they are worth." That was a very serious difficulty in proceeding in that direction. Then there was the question of the employment of these men in Government factories. The late Government had wisely thought right to give an increase of half-a-crown a week in the minimum wages in the factories at Woolwich and elsewhere in order to enable those who had to select men for employment to make a choice from the best. That had the desired effect, though it placed a difficulty in the way of the employment of old soldiers; but he thought it would be possible, in such a Department as the Ordnance Stores, as distinguished from the Ordnance Factories, to reserve a very large proportion of the places for men who had served in the ranks. He wished to dismiss from the mind of his hon. Friend the Member for Devonport, who took so much interest in the welfare of the sailor, any kind of feeling that the seaman formed any part of the difficulty which occupied their minds that night. The evidence before the Committee on that point was conclusive. While a multitude of Reservists and pensioners 1437 and old soldiers came under the notice of Boards of Guardians throughout the country, it was the rarest thing in the world to find an old sailor among the applicants for charity. The old sailor was so handy a man that he was much sought after. He wished some method could be devised by which some industrial training could be introduced into the ordinary life of the soldier, which would better fit him for his subsequent civil life. He joined in everything that had been said as to the improved character of the troops. The zealous and constant attention paid by the officers to their physical and moral life, their recreation, education, and general elevation, turned the men out, when they had completed their service, infinitely better than could have been dreamed of 20 or 30 years ago. But, on the other hand, they had lived under a system of discipline, which when they came to face the ordinary struggle for a livelihood found them very helpless indeed. All who were interested in the welfare of old soldiers must offer their grateful acknowledgments to the Society for the Employment of Old Soldiers for their exertions in their favour, and he hoped that they might long continue to render their valuable services in that direction. While conscious of the difficulties that lay in the way of his doing so, he hoped that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War would do what he could to promote the interests of the soldiers who had left the colours. He thought it would be possible to reserve a large proportion of Government employment for men who had served in the ranks, if they would accept a rate of wages adequate to the services they were able to render, and which would not bring them into contact with the wages in the ordinary labour market, or into conflict with the principles of Trade Unions. He wished that some method could be devised by which the soldier could be trained so as to fit him to take an honourable and independent position in the civil life to which he returned after leaving the colours.
§ *MR. BRODRICKsaid, that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had made a speech which appeared to be in favour of the Motion, but he could have wished that the hon. Gentleman had been a little more direct in the advice he 1438 had given, because although undoubtedly the hon. Gentleman had made a good many suggestions in the course of his address, he had hardly told the House how far he was disposed to approve of the terms of the Motion under discussion. He hoped that it did not need the assurance of his right hon. Friend the Member for East Manchester (Mr. Balfour) that those who were connected with the War Office needed no conversion in this matter. It was the feeling of the War Office that their first public duty was to see that these old soldiers should have the means given them of earning their living when they obtained their discharge from the Army. When they came to discuss this subject, however, he felt bound to point out to the House that the terms of the Motion merely touched the fringe of the question. When hon. Members talked of the obligation upon the Government to provide employment for discharged soldiers, he must remind them that there were 15,000 or 16,000 soldiers discharged, every year, and, therefore, that even if the Government were to give every appointment for which such men could be considered eligible, to discharged soldiers, they would probably be unable to find employment for more than one-tenth of the number. All that the Government-could hope to do in the circumstances was to set an example of employing such men, in order to get the idea taken up by private firms. The Government had been asked to give something more than a mere explanation of the circumstances surrounding the question, and to show their sympathy with these men, by giving some tangible, definite proof of their willingness to forward this very important work. There had already been two Parliamentary Committees appointed to consider this subject, that of 1876 and that of 1894. With regard to the latter Committee, he could only say that if it had had to deal with Military Questions alone, it would not have been possible to select a better Committee; but, unfortunately, that Committee was not sufficiently representative, and it contained hardly any men having Departmental experience. The Committee had another misfortune in the frequent change of its Chairman, and when the untimely accident of last June occurred it was suddenly brought 1439 to a close and had to wind up its evidence. The result was that there were some points which might have been more fully considered, and it would be impossible for the Government to accept offhand the recommendations made by that Committee. They had, however, considered the whole subject to see how they could endeavour to make some general provision which would be likely to have the effect in various parts of the country of providing for these men. They recognised that the authorities of the Army at the War Office were responsible for focussing the public interest which was felt in this matter, but it was not possible for the Government to undertake to find employment for every man who joined the Army. They could not undertake to open a sort of registry office to which every man might come and insist upon being found work. But they were prepared to do what they could. The Secretary of State had laid down that there should be established at the War Office, under the Inspector General of Recruiting, Sir Francis Grenfell, what he might call a bureau, and this officer would be charged with the duties connected with the employment of discharged soldiers. ["Hear, hear!"] The first duty of that officer and those who assisted him would be to turn his attention to the characters which were given to soldiers when they left the service. However useful were these characters for military purposes, they did not convey to a private employer all that he had a right to know in. regard to those whom he took into his service. There must be, therefore, some discretion allowed to the Commanding Officer, or some other officer, to supplement the information given on the discharge, and they believed that this information would be effective, and that the officer would be able to see that the man who claimed the character had not bought or exchanged it. The military authorities were also carefully considering whether non-commissioned officers or deserving men might be put in a separate class, so as to secure for them the reservation of certain appointments, with private employers or in the public service, to positions of trust. The next duty of this officer would be to assist the National Society in providing accommodation for branches, and he would 1440 have the important function of carrying on the correspondence with the large companies and private employers as to places which were desired for re tired soldiers. They would like to see the officer in charge of a large district in touch with the railway companies in the neighbourhood, and he might say how warmly the Government recognised the patriotic spirit shown by the great railway companies in regard to this matter since 1892. Then the same officer would have the function of putting in a claim for any fresh Government appointment from time to time. He would keep watch, and he would see that it waxed of filled up without putting forward a Candidate where he had the chance; or, in the case of an increase of the staff, it would be his duty to look after that. He would also draw out a form recommended by the Committee last year to be given to the soldier showing the employment open to him and the ordinary number of vacancies that he might expect to find. He believed that that was a system which would cause a great development in the work of the National Association, the sum apportioned to which they proposed to increase by £250 to be expended on branches in localities where adequate subscriptions were raised to meet the contribution by the Government. Something had been said with regard to technical instruction in the Army. The sailor was handy, and never had difficulty in finding employment; on the other hand, the ordinary soldier found great difficulty in competing with those who had learned trades in civil life. He hoped that the outcome of that Debate would have this effect—that they should have support in raising their voices, as they had done, against the assumption that they had no right, inside the barracks, to teach soldiers to do anything for themselves which would prevent someone else outside earning something. [Cheers.] This mischievous idea, which had been set on foot to some extent by the trade unions, was carried to a ridiculous extent. Under a resolution which had been sent to him from a part of the country which was always pressing for an increased number of soldiers, it would be wrong that the soldier should black 1441 his own boots, or even shave himself. [A laugh.] It was obvious that the commanding officer must not be too closely hampered by the opinions of the trade unions, and if he could give on any barrack services instruction to soldiers which would help them in carpentering or any such trade he ought not to be interfered with. On the other hand, he took notice of what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman opposite. There were places which soldiers could fill, and yet not be able to earn "fair wages" as compared with others, and he hoped that point would be borne in mind if any Committee were appointed to consider the subject of fair wages. When he came the terms of the Motion itself he found it difficult to accept the portion relating to the failure of successive Governments to find employment for these men. His right hon. Friend the Member for North-east Manchester had shown that there had not been such complete failure to provide civil employment for time-expired soldiers as the Motion before the House declared. Efforts had been made by the, Post Office, but subsequent events showed it was impossible to extend them. The limit of permanent employment at the Post Office to telegraph messengers entering the Army had made room for the employment of 1,000 Army Reserve men as postmen in one year. But complaints were received from postmasters, not only in London, but from all parts of the country, that telegraphic messengers as a class were deteriorating in consequence, and the better class of lads would not accept employment under the new conditions, and among those who did there was a feeling that they had not the certainty they had before of employment in the Post Office for the rest of their lives. He regretted that the Post Office discontinued the arrangement; but, if the telegraph messengers deteriorated, obviously the Post Office service suffered. There was an undoubted reduction in the number of time-expired soldiers employed in consequence. The War Office had no right or power to force on the Post Office a system which resulted in an inferior class of men for the largest class they employed. With regard to service counting for pension, negotiations were going on, and, so far as the War Office was able, it would secure equal treatment for 1442 soldiers with other servants of the Crown. The returns with regard to the employment of old soldiers and sailors as messengers to Government offices had improved, and more than half of the messengers were men who had been in the Army or Navy. Twelve out of 16 messengers appointed at the National Portrait Gallery were of that class. It was not practicable to say that in every Department of the public service every appointment should be given to time-expired soldiers or sailors. All he could say was that there was no Department on which the War Office would not bring, by means of the new organisation they were establishing, the strongest pressure they could to bear to secure every appointment that fell vacant for old soldiers and sailors. Already in the public service they had one-half, and they hoped there would be more. He hoped his hon. Friend would think it sufficient if the House resolved:—
That this House calls on Her Majesty's Government to make all possible provision for the employment of Reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good character by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public services as they were competent to fill.He believed that expression of opinion would be unanimous on the part of the House. If the hon. Member would be content with the words now suggested, he would take a longer step than had been taken since this subject was first mooted 20 years ago. The Government desired in every way to support the object aimed at and they hoped they had taken steps which would secure the subject being dealt with seriously. They believed that the acceptance and adoption of this Resolution would show the high importance attached to the subject by the Government.
§ MR. C. FENWICK (Northumberland, Wansbeck)said he had a great regard for soldiers and sailors, and an equal regard for civilians, and he could not allow the Debate to conclude without putting in a word for civilian workmen. Something had been said about "the ignoble and unpatriotic protests of ordinary workmen." Was it really supposed that men entered the service from patriotic motives alone? Were they not tempted by inducements not offered in industrial pursuits? If so, why should there be created for them preferential advantages when they returned to civil 1443 life? ["Hear, hear!"] He wished the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury) had been in his place, because last year he criticised very severely the idea of creating preferential advantages for soldiers or sailors whose pensions enabled them to compete unfairly with civilian workmen.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,) Bristol, W.said that his right hon. Friend was unavoidably prevented from being present.
§ MR. FENWICKaccepted that statement, and said he regretted the absence of the right hon. Gentleman, because it would have been interesting to hear his opinions in reference to this Motion.
§ *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, because he thought the House was prepared to come to a decision without that Motion.
By leave of the House, Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER withdrew the Motion and moved in its stead the Resolution suggested by Mr. Brodrick:—
That this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to make all possible provision for the employment of reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good characters, by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public service as they are competent to fill.Resolved, That this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to make all possible provision for the employment of reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good character by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public service as they are competent to fill.