HC Deb 21 April 1896 vol 39 cc1388-98

(1.) Whenever an Order in Council is made under this Act, a consultative Commission shall be formed consisting of the Lords Lieutenants of the counties wholly or partly within the prescribed limits, of two persons appointed by each such Lord Lieutenant, and of two persons appointed by the County Councils of each of those counties, and of such other persons, if any, as may be appointed by the Secretary of State. If any such Lord Lieutenant is unable or unwilling to act, the Secretary of State may appoint a person to act in his place, and if any person appointed by the County Council dies, resigns, or is unable or unwilling to act, the County Council may appoint a person to act in his place.

(2.) The Commission may make such rules as they think fit with respect to the places and times of meeting, the quorum at meetings, and their mode of procedure.

(3.) Every question shall be decided by a majority of the votes of the members of the Commission voting on that question.

(4.) The officer in command of the forces, and the consultative Commission, may by order authorise anything by this Act directed or permitted to be authorised, and in particular declare what enclosed lands, roads, or sources of water are to be deemed to be authorised enclosed lands, authorised roads, or authorised sources of water for all or any of the purposes of this Act.

(5.) The said officer and Commission may also by order make regulations with respect to the protection of cattle and sheep by securing them in folds or farmyards, and with respect to any other matter which they may deem essential for the purpose of preventing damage to property and for more efficiently carrying into effect the purposes of this Act.

(6.) Public notice shall be given in such manner as may be directed by the consultative Commission, of any regulation made in pursuance of this Act for the protection of any cattle, sheep, or other property, and any person who neglects to comply with any regulations so made in relation to his property shall not be entitled to claim compensation in respect of any damage caused to the property in consequence of his having been guilty of the neglect.

(7.) The consultative Commission may delegate any of the powers given to them by this Act to any committee or committees consisting of two or more of their number, and any such committee or committees shall during the prescribed period attend upon and he in communication with the officer commanding the forces or any officer deputed by him.

(8.) Any powers by this Act given to the consultative Commission and the officer in command of the forces of making any Order, or doing any other thing may be exercised on behalf of the Commission, by any member of the Commission to whom those powers may be delegated by the Commission, and on behalf of the officer in command of the forces by any officer deputed by him for the purpose; and for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the powers conferred by this Act on the Commission and officer in command, the Commission and officer shall make arrangements for securing the attendance of a sufficient number of members of the Commission at such places and with such bodies of troops as may be agreed upon, with the view of the members so in attendance acting for the purposes of this section in conjunction with the officer in command of the forces or any officers deputed by him.

(9.) Any Order made in pursuance of this section in relation to lands or any local matter may describe the lands or matter by reference to a map, or in any other convenient manner.

(10.) Any Order declaring what enclosed lands, roads, or sources of water are to be deemed authorised enclosed lands, roads, or sources, may either describe the lands, roads, or sources so authorised, or may declare all the enclosed lands, roads, or sources within the prescribed limits, or within any particular area with the specified exceptions, to be authorised enclosed lands, roads, or sources, and the purposes for which they are so authorised.

(11.) Any Order made in pursuance of this section may be rescinded or altered.

*MR. BRODRICK

said there was a series of amendments which had been placed on the Paper, all of which would be met by amendments he intended to propose. The desire of the Government was to have a Commission representing all those interested in land. There was no desire to have a Commission on which there should be a majority of any particular class. As the Clause stood, the Lord Lieutenant of the county would be a member and would nominate two other members. They had taken the Lord Lieutenant, as he was almost always a large landowner, and generally a large farmer, who held an undoubted position in the county, which enabled him to use his influence for the protection of the various local interests. The elective element consisted of two county councillors, and the Secretary of State had power to add others to represent these interests. What was now proposed, in lieu of this, was that, in addition to the Lord Lieutenant, there would be two elected members of the County Council beside the Chairman of the Council; and instead of the Secretary of State having unlimited power of appointment, he proposed to accept an amendment of the hon. Member for Somerset, which would provide that the power of appointment should not be more than one-half of the whole consultative Commission.

MR. LUTTRELL

thought it would have been better if these alterations had been in print; but so far as he understood them, he had no objection at all. He should like to point out that the Lord Lieutenant was not one who could speak the opinions of a locality. ["Oh!"] He might be able to speak them wrongly. He begged to move, after "consisting" in sub-section (1), to leave out, "of the Lords Lieutenant of the counties wholly or partly within the prescribed limits, of two persons appointed by each such Lord Lieutenant." The Lord Lieutenant would not be able so well to express the opinion of the locality as the Councillors, who were the representatives of the people. They must not lose sight of the fact that, the Lord Lieutenant was not a representative. He could do just what he pleased. He was far removed from local opinion, and there was no one to call him to book. The Lord Lieutenant was a semi-military appointment, he believed. Surely there was enough of the military element to be nominated by the Secretary of State for War, and besides that they were to have a half military man in the Lord Lieutenant. He attached much greater importance to the opinions of the County Councillors than he did to the opinions of the Lord Lieutenant, for they would, he believed, be able to more adequately express the views of the locality.

*MR. BRODRICK

said, that he had another Amendment to introduce in consequence of the statement he had made, beginning at the word "of" in line 40, and he would submit that the question should be put to leave out all the words from "consisting," in line 38, to the word "limits" in line 40.

*THE CHAIRMAN

put the question in the form suggested by Mr. Brodrick.

MR. E. STRACHEY (Somerset, S.)

said, he hoped his hon. Friend would not press his objection, because he thought the Under Secretary had given them a good deal. He had struck out the two members of the Commission to be nominated by the Lord Lieutenant, and, though he was strongly against the Lord Lieutenant having such a power of nomination, he was inclined to think there was no very great objection to include the Lord Lieutenant, considering that the Under Secretary had fairly met them by putting on the Chairman of the County Council as a make-weight to the Lord Lieutenant, if they cared to look at it from that point of view. He thought the Committee ought to look at this matter dispassionately, and see that every interest was represented. Undoubtedly the Lord Lieutenant would represent an interest which the Chairman of the County Council would not represent. He thought the Under Secretary had also made them a large and important concession when he expressed his willingness to accept, practically, his Amendment. They had got all they had asked for with the exception of the exclusion of the Lord Lieutenant, and that being so, they could really allow the Lord Lieutenant to remain as a member of the Commission to represent a distinct interest.

COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY (Shropshire, Newport)

said, the hon. Member for Devonshire was labouring under what he might call an absolutely erroneous impression. He seemed to think that the influence and weight of the Lord Lieutenant would be thrown in the scale in favour of the military view, as against the rural or district needs of the county concerned. He ventured to think that exactly the contrary would be the case, and that, so far as the predisposition of the Lord Lieutenant might be supposed to exist, it would be absolutely in favour of the locality for which he was Lord Lieutenant. He was perfectly certain that, taking the rural districts all through, they would be delighted to see the Lord Lieutenant a member of the Commission, because they would know that rural affairs were quite safe in his hands.

MR. J. H. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

said, he presumed that the Lord Lieutenant was put on the Commission to represent the landed interest in any particular locality. If there was a case for the Lord Lieutenant to be put on the Commission, surely the case was far stronger with regard to the tenant-farmers. It was not the landed proprietor who was going to suffer for any damage by these manœuvres, and he thought the Under Secretary ought to go a little further and put a representative of the tenant-farmers of the neigh-bourhood on the Commission. He thought the hon. Gentleman had gone some distance in the direction asked by some of his hon. Friends, but he rose principally to ask him with regard to the position where a town was concerned. Take his own district in Scotland. The military operations would be carried on in close proximity to a particular town, where there was probably better land than there would be some distance away. Would the hon. Gentleman consider, before the Report stage, whether or not it would be advisable to have the local authority represented on this Commission, because it seemed to him that in some cases, the local Town Council would be equally as much concerned in protecting the rights of the inhabitants as any County Council. He would also ask him whether he had taken into account the possibility of the Lord Lieutenant not being in the country at the time these operations were carried on? Some difficulty might arise, in such a case, if the hon. Gentleman did not introduce some provision for the Deputy Lieutenant having the power of the Lord Lieutenant.

MR. HENRY LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

said, the only person who could be deemed to be a representative was one who was elected to represent a certain interest. Who did the Lord Lieutenant represent? The Lord Lieutenant was a great nobleman, who was selected because he was a great nobleman and a great proprietor. In a non-elected sense, he might be supposed to represent the large proprietors, but the large proprietors were not affected or touched by this Bill, and surely it was more reasonable to put on a Committee of this sort the Chairman of a County Council, and the County Councillors rather than the Lord Lieutenant, who was appointed very often through Court influence, for Party reasons, or for other such cause, and who very often did not reside frequently in the county of which he was supposed to be Lord Lieutenant. They knew the County Councillors would be there, and as they were the choice of the inhabitants, the tenant-farmers and others of the county, it was better to depend upon them rather than to add to the Committee the Lord Lieutenant.

SIR WALTER FOSTER

said, his hon. Friends were anxious that the representative element should be in a majority on this Commission. If the hon. Gentleman opposite could see his way to define and limit the number to be nominated by the Secretary of State, so as to give the majority to the members of the representative bodies in the locality, they might get over the difficulty.

*MR. BRODRICK

said, he proposed to amend the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Somerset, so as to give the Secretary of State a distinctly less number than half the Commission.

MR. EDWARD MORTON (Devonport)

said, as he understood the matter there would be four unelectcd members and three elected members on the Commission.

*MR. BRODRICK

said, that if the Committee limited them too much they would be obliged to leave out some of the bodies and interests who had already communicated with them, and asked them to see that they were represented specially.

SIR H. CAMPBELL - BANNER-MAN

said, a good deal depended upon whom the persons were who would be nominated by the Secretary of State. There was great jealousy on the part of some of his hon. Friends of military interference. Some hon. Members who had seen a Lord Lieutenant in full panoply conceived him to be a great military authority. [Laughter.] He was not surprised at that, because he always regarded with considerable awe the appearance even of a Deputy Lieutenant. [Laughter.] Practically the Lord Lieutenant would represent the landowning class and the local interests generally of the county, but he would have with him the Chairman and two members of the County Council, as now proposed by the Under Secretary, so that the local members of the Commission would be a majority of the representative character desired by his hon. Friends. The concession made by the Under Secretary was a very great one, and he thought it ought to satisfy his hon. Friends. But then they were face to face with the mysterious personages who might be put on by the Secretary of State, and who, for some malign purpose of his own, might put on nothing short of Major-Generals or formidable people of that kind. He understood that that was not the intention, but that it was the intention to get the Secretary of State, in the interests of the public and not of the Army, to put on representatives of outside or peculiar interests in the district who might otherwise suffer by not being represented. If this could be represented in any way, in order that they might have a little more definite characterisation of the members whom the Secretary of State would put on, that might completely remove the objections of his hon. Friends. He thought it was desirable the Secretary of State should have the power of putting on representatives of the commoners or classes of that sort. They must remember that the Secretary of State was not only a person at the head of Army Administration, but he was also a Minister sitting in that House, and he could have awkward questions put to him if he put on the Commission undesirable members who were imported for the real purpose of taking the military view of the questions submitted to him.

MR. WARNER

said, what was wanted was to have the tenant-farmers represented in some way.

*MR. BRODRICK

submitted that the best way of meeting the point would be to add the following words after "Secretary of State" in line 3, page 3, "as being necessary in his opinion to represent the local interests affected."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn; words inserted after "Secretary of State "—" as being necessary in his opinion to represent the local interests affected."

Several consequential Amendments having been agreed to.

MR. HULSE moved after "County Councils of each of those counties," to insert, "and in the case of the New Forest the official Verderer and two persons appointed by the Court of Verderers."

*MR. BRODRICK

agreed to the principle of special representation in the case of the New Forest, but thought the representation asked for was too large.

MR. WARNER

thought the New Forest was a most proper place for military manœuvres, but that was no reason why they should have extra protection besides that which they would get from the Secretary of State.

*MR. BRODRICK

said, the New Forest stood in very special conditions, and it had a special Act of Parliament for its protection. The House of Commons would do well to follow the usual practice by giving it protection in this Bill also. He would accept the words "two persons appointed by the Court of Verderers," leaving out the official Verderer.

Amendment, as thus amended, agreed to.

MR. STRACHEY moved, in the same sub-section, to leave out "Secretary of State" and to insert "County Council." He objected to the Secretary of State being allowed to appoint someone in place of the Lord Lieutenant if he was unable or unwilling to act. The Lord Lieutenant represented, in a way, the interests of the county, and if he was unable or unwilling to act it should be, not the representative of central Government, but the County Council which should take his place.

MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS

said, there were counties which might be affected where the County Council was entirely urban, and any nomination they might make might not be likely to give satisfaction to the rural districts. For that reason the words in the Bill should be maintained.

SIR WALTER FOSTER

said, that seemed to be taking it out of the hands of the local authority.

*MR. BRODRIOK

assured the Committte that this case had been most carefully considered. There were counties which it would be invidious to name, and which would be scheduled under this Bill, where all the officers and everybody who took a prominent part in the County Council was an urban person, and their nomination would not command the confidence of the farmers.

MR. LUTTRELL

suggested that there might be a provision that if there were an urban County Council, there the Secretary of State might have power, but that generally speaking the County Councils would be the body to make the appointment in the circumstances contemplated by the clause.

MR. LOGAN

suggested that if it was thought the County Council did not represent the rural interest, words should be accepted providing that the Secretary of State might appoint a person "being a tenant-farmer."

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNER-MAN

said, that the point was a small one. He did not see the necessity of the sentence at all as given in the clause. Why should the Committee contemplate the Lord Lieutenant being unwilling to undertake this duty? If he was unable, then the Secretary of State should appoint someone from among outside members who would represent local interests.

Question put:—

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 212; Noes, 121.—(Division List, No. 106.)

MR. STRACHEY moved to leave out "Chairman of County Council" and to insert "Lord Lieutenant" as the head of the Consultative Commission referred to in the clause.

MR. LOGAN

said the Government professed to be anxious to safeguard the interests of the tenant farmers, and, as they would chiefly be concerned, he suggested that a tenant farmer should be appointed.

*MR. BRODRICK

said the reason the Lord Lieutenant was suggested was that it was thought he would best represent the general interests of the county. A tenant farmer might in some cases be appointed, but not as a general rule.

MR. WARNER

urged that this was a matter in which the Government might meet his hon. Friend.

*MR. BRODRICK

said he would insert words providing that the head of the Commission should be a resident owner or occupier of land in the county.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. LUTTRELL moved to insert at the end of the clause:— The draft of every Order declaring what i lands, roads, or sources of water are to he i deemed authorised lands, roads, or sources shall he deposited for public inspection during at least two weeks at the office of every district council within the prescribed limits, and notice of such deposit shall he advertised for two successive weeks in at least two newspapers circulating in each county, wholly or partly within the prescribed limits, and such notice shall state in what manner objections to the said draft Order may he made. The said officer and Commission shall hold at least one public meeting to hear all objections which may be made to the draft Order, and shall give due consideration to all objections so made, and revise and settle the draft Order with due regard thereto.

*MR. BRODRICK

accepted the Amendment subject to verbal alteration.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Other consequential Amendments agreed to.

On the question that Clause 5 as amended, stand part of the Bill,

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint, Boroughs)

desired to have some information as to Sub-section 11, which provided that "any Order made in pursuance of this section may be rescinded or altered." He should like to know to what extent that provision was likely to be made use of, and whether the interests of the localities were safeguarded?

*MR. BRODRICK

explained that it was quite possible an Order might be made which would not be required to be voted upon, and this provision would enable it at once to be rescinded.

MR. LEWIS

quite agreed so far as the rescission was concerned, but his point was rather as to the operation of the provision. It seemed to give extensive powers so as to admit of the alteration of the clause to any extent.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,) Isle of Wight

explained that this was a very common sub-section to insert, and would not interfere with the rights of any persons to compensation.

MR. LEWIS

suggested that words should be inserted providing that "any alteration made in pursuance of this sub-section shall be subject to the conditions upon which the original Order was framed."

THE ATTORNEY - GENERAL

did not think the words suggested necessary, but if the hon. Gentleman thought they were and would put them on the Paper, they should be considered between this and the Report stage.

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE

thought that some such words as his hon. Friend had indicated were necessary in the protection of any interest that might be affected by orders of this character

Clause 6,—