LOCAL GOVENMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL. (Hansard, 15 April 1896)

§ MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.)
said, the Government had frequently expressed their desire to extend on a suitable occasion local government to the general body of the people of Ireland. But by this Bill the Local Government Board granted extended powers to the Armagh Town Council, the most reactionary local authority probably in the whole of Ireland, without making any attempt to redress the grievances under which the Catholics of Armagh laboured in regard to the municipal franchise. The majority of the people of Armagh were Catholic. There were 21 members of the town council, and not one of them was a Catholic, nor had there been a Catholic member of that body for many years. Indeed, so reactionary is this body, that in 1890, when the Catholics made an attempt to secure representation, a Presbyterian, who was a lunatic, was put forward, and they put the lunatic at the top of the poll and defeated every one of the Catholics. [Laughter.] This body, to which the Government proposed to give a large measure of extended powers derived its jurisdiction under the Act of 1828, which was the most absurd and obscure Act regulating the governing bodies of towns in Ireland. There was a much later Act, the Act of 1854, which pro vided a lower franchise——

§ *MR. SPEAKER
Order, order! I think the hon. Gentleman would not be in order in pursuing the line of argument he is now following. This is an ordinary Local Government Provisional Order Bill, which proposes to transfer from the Grand Jury to the Urban Sanitary Authority of Armagh jurisdiction 942 as to roads, bridges, and footways. The hon. Gentleman would not be in order in discussing on such a Bill what the Urban Sanitary Authority of Armagh ought to be, or what its history has been in the past. He is only entitled to discuss the question whether these powers should be transferred to this body as being the existing Sanitary Authority of Armagh.

§ MR. T M. HEALY
said, he had apprehended that ruling. But he thought the Speaker would see the relevancy of his point if he referred to Sections 8 and 9 of the Provisional Order. The Local Government Board had brought into the Provisional Order the Towns Improvements Act; but while they gave the additional taxing powers under that Act, they did not give the franchise which that Act conferred. That was a monstrous state of affairs. The Chief Secretary, as President of the Local Government Board in Ireland, was responsible for the Provisional Order. It was the outcome of a local Inquiry held by one of the Board's Inspectors. The Catholics appeared before that Inquiry, and objected to this extension of powers until something had been done to give them representation; and therefore it was idle for the Government to pretend that they were not conscious of the grievances existing. Under this Order the Armagh Town Commissioners would have the right of going before the Presentment Sessions, which was the preliminary body to the Grand Jury, and of course they would thus select some of their own Orange gang. Thus, further powers were being given to the Orange gang, while the Catholics were being further ostracised. Catholic emancipation was practically a nullity in North Armagh.

§ *MR. SPEAKER
The hon. Member is really contravening my ruling. He is proceeding to enter into the question of how Armagh should be locally governed. That question is not open to him.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY
said, that his objection to the Bill was that it gave further powers to an Orange lodge. It was proved before the Local Government Board Inquiry that the Town Clerk of Armagh ran the whole town. He elected the 21 Commissioners, and if anyone said a word, he was attacked by the 943 Town Clerk in his newspaper, the Ulster Gazette. Bad as the Orange Grand Jury might be, he preferred that the powers should be in their hands, because the proposed transfer meant an increase in the taxation. At present the tax was not more than 2s. 6d. in the £; under the Order it would be 4s. 7d. in the £. It was said that these Provisional Orders were a matter of course. He warned the Government that there would be no more "matters of course" Provisional Orders or private Bills so long as the present state of affairs continued. Irish Members would continue to object to any extension of powers to these obsolete bodies until some popular life was put into them. It was true that Armagh was in a bad sanitary condition, and there was a necessity for these increased sanitary powers. But with this extension the general body of the people must be given some voice in the control of the taxes which they would have to pay. The expenditure was mismanaged; for with the same taxation the town of Dundalk managed to achieve much greater results.

§ MR. EDWARD M'HUGH (Armagh, S.)
said, that this was a most important question for the Catholics of Armagh. At the last census the population of the city was 7,438. Of this number, 3,820 were Catholics—a majority over all other denominations. Yet all the denominations but the Catholics were represented on the Town Commissioners. He asked that the Instruction standing in his name——

§ *MR. SPEAKER
Order, order! The hon. Gentleman cannot discuss his Instruction at the present moment. The discussion of its subject matter is not admissible on the present Motion for the Second Reading. I have already ruled that the Sanitary Authority must be taken as it is; and no question of reforming the Sanitary Authority can be dealt with on this Motion for the Second Reading.

§ MR. E. M'HUGH
said that he hoped the Government would give the powers asked for in his Instruction.

§ MR. DUNBAR BARTON (Armagh, Mid)
said, he was quite certain that the local Catholics would not have used anything like the words used by the hon. Member for North Louth. The hon. Member had spoken of respectable 944 citizens occupying a responsible position in a way which he himself must regret. Before the Local Government Board Inquiry, the leading Nationalist of Armagh stated that the Town Clerk had acted fairly and properly as far as he could judge.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY
I only said that he was an Orangeman. I know the Town Clerk very well.

§ MR. DUNBAR BARTON
was continuing his references to the subject, when

*MR. SPEAKER said
I hope the hon. Member will not pursue this line of argument, which is not relevant.

§ MR. DUNBAR BARTON
said that he would content himself with the assertion that he had an ample answer to the statements and suggestions of the hon. and learned Member for North Louth. As to the old Act, under which Armagh was at present regulated, the poor people of Armagh were, by its operation, practically exempt from taxation. The small houses below £5 in rent were not assessed at all, so that the whole of the taxation fell on the richer people. That was one reason why the Town Improvements Act was not adopted. The hon. Member admitted that this Bill was necessary. He admitted that the sanitary condition of Armagh required the application of this Provisional Order, but he desired to defeat it and to leave the streets in a filthy and insanitary condition simply because the Town Commissioners were Protestants. Such a position would be condemned by the common sense of the House. Nobody was more anxious than he was that all classes and parties should be represented on the governing body of this town, but the proposition of the hon. Member was contrary to all good sense and fairness.

§ MR. G. MURNAGHAN (Tyrone, Mid)
said, he came there as a representative of the Catholics of Ulster to protest against this Bill. The Catholics of Armagh did not feel that they could afford to place another £100 per cent. of taxation in the hands of an unsympathetic body. The city of Armagh needed extensive sanitary changes, and though the Catholics were as anxious as anybody could be to see the streets properly cleansed, nevertheless, they did not feel that at this time of day they should revert to old Statutes of 40 or 50 years 945 ago, in order to prop up an ascendancy party. They felt that they would have no voice in the spending of the money which they contributed. That was a principle which should not be sanctioned in this House. Taxation and representation ought to go together. He looked to the Chief Secretary for some sympathetic treatment of the present case.

§ MR. VESEY KNOX (Londonderry)
pointed out that the position in Armagh was very much the same as that in regard to Deny. There was a Catholic majority, and, whereas on the Grand Jury a Roman Catholic might sometimes be found, on the body to whom the powers proposed by this Bill were to be entrusted, such a thing was never permitted. The reason was that there was no popular representation nor division of the city into wards. It was all one ward. There was power under the Act of 1854 to divide the city into wards which might give more Catholic representation, but that was not proposed to be applied to Armagh by tin's Bill.

§ *MR. SPEAKER
The hon. Member is now going into the question of the mode of governing Armagh. That, as I have already ruled, he is not entitled to do. I hope the hon. Member will observe my ruling.

§ MR. KNOX
referred to Clause 9 of the Bill, and said his contention was that this Bill ought not to be allowed to pass unless that clause was so altered as to make the adoption of the Town Improvements Act obligatory. The Act under which this body was now constituted was a very obsolete one, and applied to very few other places in Ireland.

§ *MR. SPEAKER
said, Clause 9 was inserted simply for the purpose of carrying out the other powers of the Provisional Order Act, and not so as to raise in any way the question of the mode of governing Armagh. The hon. Member could not argue upon provisions which he said ought to be in the Bill, but which were not in it.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY
, on the point of order, asked whether it was Mr. Speaker's view that the Schedule to this Bill was in no way to be amended by the House of Commons or the House of Lords?

§ *MR. SPEAKER
I have not said so.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY
Does not that follow?

§ *MR. SPEAKER
I think on the Second Reading an hon. Member is not entitled to say that a matter which is not in the Bill ought to be in it, and then to argue a question which such matter would have raised.

§ MR. KNOX
, continuing, pointed out that unless the Bill was discussed now it never could be discussed, and it seemed to him that the consideration of a Bill by this House was almost a farce under these circumstances. He hoped the Government would give the House some assurance as to the course they intended to take on the further stages of the Bill.

§ *THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. JOHN ATKINSON,) Londonderry, N.
wished to say on behalf of the Government that if there were exclusion in Armagh, they had no sympathy with it whatever, and would be very glad indeed to see either the Town Improvements Act applied in Armagh so as to redress any grievance which the Catholic population might feel or a Measure brought forward by the town itself having that object. But he would call attention to what the present Bill was. It was a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order by the Local Government Board under the Public Health Act. The Local Government Board, acting under that Statute, had no power to determine anything whatever about the representation of the different sections of the community on the Town Commission. They had merely to authorise the existing Sanitary Authority to carry out certain sanitary reforms for the advantage of the health of the community. It was the duty of the Commissioners, as the local authority, to cleanse the streets. The Grand Jury were bound to repair the streets. The Commissioners said they were unable to cleanse the streets because the Grand Jury did not repair the streets. All that this Bill did under the powers conferred by the Public Health Act (1878) was to transfer to the Local Commissioners the power to cleanse, repair, and maintain the streets. It would therefore be strange if it were supposed that the Government should allow the people of Armagh to tramp through the mud and to have their vehicles broken until a Bill was brought 947 in to redress the grievances of the Roman Catholics. It was competent for 21 ratepayers of Armagh to petition the Local Government Board, but there was no desire or intention on behalf of the present Commissioners to oppose any attempt to extend the provisions of the Improvement Act.

§ *SERJEANT HEMPHILL (Tyrone, N.)
apprehended that the House had a perfect right to consider the merits of a Provisional Order just as if it were an ordinary Bill brought in for the first time, or proposed to be read a second time. Those hon. Members acquainted with the peculiarities of Provisional Orders knew that the Local Government Board in Ireland was a Government Department of which the Chief Secretary was for the time being the head. Therefore, any Provisional Order which was introduced by the Local Government Board intended to receive the sanction of the House was substantially a Government Bill. It was not like a private Bill. The Provisional Order system was a mere short cut for legislation, but it still left the paramount authority in the House of Commons and the House of Lords to confirm the Orders. This, then, was a Government Bill, and the argument of his hon. Friends from Ireland was that the House should not pass a Government Bill for a limited purpose which would transfer the power of taxation from the Grand Jury of the county of Armagh to the Commissioners of the city of Armagh. That was the point of their objection. He understood that the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Armagh, who were in a majority, preferred that this Provisional Order should not become law until something was done to redress their grievances with regard to their representation in the management of the municipality. He was glad to hear from the Attorney General an expression of his sympathy with the Roman Catholic population, because, representing, as the right hon. Gentleman did, the Government, at this early stage of their Parliamentary career, he thought he could say that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would have ample opportunity of adopting a municipal Bill which would redress the crying grievances, not only of the city of Armagh, but of several 948 other towns. The object he and the other Irish Members at this side of the House sought to attain was to express their apprehensions that if this Bill passed, transferring the power of taxation from one body to another, no effort would be made to alter the municipal franchise in the city of Armagh. He and they preferred that the Provisional Order should be rejected altogether, because if it was rejected the Attorney General would no doubt advise his colleagues that they ought at once to bring in a Measure which would redress those grievances, and which would at the same time facilitate the advantages to the town supposed to be provided by this Provisional Order. His experience was that where road authorities had been transferred from the counties to the boroughs great litigation and want of satisfaction had resulted. Not long ago, in a case where those powers had been exercised with regard to a town in county Tipperary, the transfer of roads and streets from the county to the town Commissioners, had given rise to most extensive litigation. He was not sure that he understood correctly the ruling of the Chair as to the moving of an Instruction, or whether it would be competent to do so.

§ *MR. SPEAKER
I have indicated that my ruling would be that it is not competent to move the Instruction. The subject matter of the Instruction is not a proper matter for discussion.

§ *SERJEANT HEMPHILL
said, in that case it only remained for him to congratulate hon. Members from Ireland on having obtained an expression of sympathy which, at all events, was the first step to some redress being obtained from the Government, of the grievances of the Roman Catholic population in the different towns.

§ THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,) Leeds, Central
did not think that it was desirable to send the Bill to a Hybrid Committee. It ought, in his opinion, to go to an ordinary Committee.

§ MR. VESEY KNOX (Londonderry)
supported the Motion. The clauses in the Bill referring to the Town Improvements Act were unusual. The taxation part of the Town Improvements Act would be applied by this Provisional Order Bill, whilst the part of the Act relating to the division of towns into wards for the purposes of representation would not be applied. A Bill containing these unusual clauses ought to be sent to a Committee before whom the Catholics of Armagh could be heard without being put to enormous expense. He moved that the Debate be adjourned until to-morrow, in order that the Attorney General might find out whether there was not precedents for sending a Bill of this kind to a Hybrid Committee.

§ *MR. SPEAKER
said that the Motion was not "by order," and that if it was objected to it must stand over.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
appealed to the hon. Member opposite to withdraw his Motion. There was no reason why this Hill should be referred to a Hybrid Committee. It did not raise a political or quasi-political question, and there was no precedent for sending a Bill to comprise a Provisional Order to a Hybrid Committee.

§ MR. T. M. HEALY
thought it was true that there was no precedent for taking that course, but neither was there a precedent for a Provisional Order Bill which proposed to confer the taxing powers of the Town Improvements Act of 1854 and to withhold the rights of representation which, under that Act, should accompany taxation.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND
said, that the taxes imposed for the repair of streets being part of the county cess were, of course, payable by everybody liable to county cess. The taxation in the town was more restricted, and when this Provisional Order was passed, it was thought right to extend the area of taxation under the Town Improvements Act in order to make it coterminous with the area of taxation 950 under the Grand Jury Acts. No additional taxation was imposed. The inhabitants of the town who formerly paid for the repair of the roads to the Grand Jurors were in the future to pay the Town Commissioners.

§ *MR. SPEAKER
repeated that if the Motion of the hon. Member for South Armagh was opposed, it must be put down for another day.

§ MR. GERALD BALFOUR
suggested that the question should be deferred till next Wednesday.

§ MR. KNOX
asked whether it was not the usual course, when objection was taken, to defer the matter until the following day only.

§ *MR. SPEAKER
When an hon. Member who represents the promoters of a Bill names a day, it is usual for the House to consult his convenience, and to assent to the adjournment of the Debate until that day. If, however, the House does not choose to grant the hon. Member that indulgence, the Bill ought to be deferred to the next day. As I have already stated incidentally, the Instruction on the Paper, standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Armagh, is out of order.