HC Deb 14 April 1896 vol 39 cc900-5

"1.—(1.) This Act shall, so far as relates to the passing over and occupation of land, be in force within such limits, and during such period, as Her Majesty in Council may by Order prescribe, and the limits and period so prescribed are in this Act referred to as the prescribed limits and the prescribed period.

(2.) Not less than three months before the commencement of the period proposed to be prescribed, a draft of the proposed Order shall be sent to the county council of every administrative county wholly or partly within the limits proposed to be prescribed, and public notice of the proposal to make the Order shall be given in such manner as Her Majesty in Council may direct."

(3.) If within thirty days after the publication of the notice aforesaid any petition is presented to the county council of any of the counties affected by the proposed Order against the proposal to make the Order, the draft Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament for not less than thirty days on which that House is sitting, and if either House, before the expiration of thirty days during which the draft has been laid before it, presents an address to Her Majesty against the draft, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, but without prejudice to the making of any new draft Order.

(4) If no such petition is presented, or having been presented is withdrawn, before the expiration of the thirty days first aforesaid, or if on the draft of the Order being laid before Parliament no address adverse thereto is presented, Her Majesty in Council may make the Order."

MR. A. C. HUMPHREYS-OWEN (Montgomery) moved an Amendment providing that a draft of a proposed Order in Council should be sent to the County Councils affected six months before the commencement of the period proposed to be prescribed by the Order, instead of three months before as proposed by the clause. He thought that longer notice was desirable.

*MR. BRODRICK

hoped the hon. Member would not press the Amendment. The time given would be very considerable. If the change proposed were made, it would be impossible for manœuvres to be held at all this year, and a considerable part of the money for that purpose had already been voted. He had gone into the question with many local authorities, and they were all perfectly satisfied with the arrangement.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. H. C. F. LUTTRELL (Devon, Tavistock) moved an Amendment, providing that the draft Order should be sent to district and parish councils as well as county councils.

*MR. BRODRICK

said he was quite ready to accept that Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE moved an Amendment providing that the draft should be sent also to the corporations and every municipal borough affected.

*MR. BRODRICK

said he had no objection to that if the hon. Gentleman thought it was necessary.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. LUTTRELL moved an Amendment, providing that the proposal to make an Order under the Bill "shall be advertised for three consecutive weeks in at least two newspapers circulating in each county wholly or partly within the prescribed limits." He said his object was that full publicity should be given to the Order, and he thought it was a reasonable request to make that the papers circulating in the district should have an opportunity of making the Order known to the people in the county.

*MR. BRODRICK

I have no "objection to that.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. LUTTRELL moved to leave out the following words, at the beginning of sub-Section 3:— If within thirty days after the publication of the notice aforesaid any petition is presented to the County Council of any of the counties affected by the proposed Order against the proposal to make the Order. He said, he had put the Amendment down because he could not see that any object was gained by laying the Order before the County Council before it was laid on the Table of the House. He thought it would be far better that objections to the Order should be made in the House, and he did not see why objections should only be allowed to be made if an appeal was made by way of petition to the County Council. There should be full opportunity given to the representatives of the people in the House of Commons to make their views known.

*MR. BRODRICK

pointed out that any objection presented to the County Council must come before the Houses of Commons and Lords, and must be on the Table of both Houses for 30 days. There would be full opportunity given to Members of either House to move the rescission of the Order. The proposal that petitions should be presented to the County Council was intended to act as a safeguard to the locality.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee)

I gather that provision is made for the automatic transfer of an objection laid before the County Council, from the Council to Parliament.

*MR. BRODRICK

There is an Amendment on the Paper to that effect.

MR. LUTTRELL

said, that under the Bill it was only possible to have a draft Order laid upon the Table of the House if there was an appeal through the County Council. He desired that the Order should be laid whether there was an appeal from the locality or not.

*MR. BRODRICK

said, the object was that any petition made by anybody should be presented to the House through the County Council, who were the best authority for giving the House information as to local opinion.

MR. LUTTRELL

thought the hon. Gentleman did not understand his point. The Bill provided that the draft Order should only come to the House through a County Council. He contended that it ought to come before the House independently of any Council so that the representatives of the people might be able to speak for their districts.

MR. E. ROBERTSON

did not think that the Amendment to which the hon. Gentleman had called his attention quite met his point.

*MR. BRODRICK

pointed out that the clause provided that if within 30 days after the publication of the notice any petition is presented to the Council against the proposal to make the Order, the draft Order should be laid before each House of Parliament. In the Amendment to which he had referred the hon. Gentleman he proposed merely to modify that by providing that the petition should not have been withdrawn before the expiration of the 30 days. If the petition was not withdrawn the County Council would be bound to lay it before Parliament with any observations they might have to make upon it.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said, he did not see why an exception should be made in this case. The rule was that any provisional Order should be open to challenge by any Member of the House, and he thought that rule ought to be followed in this case.

MR. EDWARD MORTON (Devonport)

asked who was to present the petition.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said that, supposing there was a petition presented on general grounds against the Order, would it be competent for any hon. Member to raise a Debate?

MR. J. SAMUEL (Stockton)

asked with reference to the procedure in the case of non-county boards.

DR. TANNER (Cork, Mid)

asked whether it would be permissible for an hon. Member to call attention to the Order?

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,) Isle of Wight

said that ample public notice had been provided in every case. The question was, "Ought there to be an obligation to lay every Order on the Table, or only when a petition was presented to the County Council?" He submitted that it was far more reasonable that the Order should only be laid on the Table when the local authorities had their attention called by a petition as to the Order. It must then come forward with the petition, showing what was the objection to it, and any remarks of the County Council or any other authority chose to make upon it. It was very much better that there should be public notice, in order that the people should take the initial step by ventilating the matter locally.

MR. LUTTRELL

thought it would be far better to have the draft Order laid on the Table of the House, be there petitions or not against it from the locality.

MR. J. W. LOGAN (Leicester, Harborough)

asked why the Government objected to lay the Order on the Table of the House.

*MR. BRODRICK

said the object was to obtain the ventilating of the question locally by the proper authorities.

MR. GEORGE LAMBERT (Devon, South Molton)

pointed out that some County Councils only met four times a year, and there would be some practical inconvenience in the suggestion of the Government.

*MR. BRODRICK

said he had no abjection to take out the words referred to.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. LUTTRELL moved an Amendment for the purpose of providing that no Order under Clause1 should be made until a Resolution of each House of Parliament had been passed approving of the draft Order. He argued that if land was to be prescribed, that ought only to he done by Parliamentary Resolution, and that there would be no difficulty in getting such a Resolution passed when the demand made was a reasonable one.

*MR. BRODRICK

said that he could not accept the Amendment, and that the rules of the House provided no machinery for effecting the object which the hon. Member desired.

MR. LUTTRELL

contended that the Standing Orders relating to resolutions to confirm contracts, supplied a precedent for the method of procedure which he desired to have adopted.

COLONEL. BLUNDELL (Lancashire, Ince)

rose to continue the discussion, but it being ten minutes before Seven of the clock,

The Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.