HC Deb 19 March 1895 vol 31 cc1382-4

On the Motion to go into Supply,

MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester, E.)

said, I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question which may save the House the trouble of dividing on the Motion standing in his name with regard to the suspension of the 12 o'clock Rule. I wish to ask whether, by suspending the 12 o'clock Rule, the right hon. Gentleman contemplates continuing the discussion of Supply for half-an-hour or an hour, or whether he intends to press Supply through, even should questions arise which require, in the opinion of any section of the House, moderate time for discussion? I am not aware that there are such questions, but it is never possible to say what necessity may arise.

SIR W. HARCOURT

I should not wish unnecessarily to press on the House any protracted sitting; but I am obliged to adhere—after making careful inquiries at the Treasury—to the absolute necessity for closing Supply to-night, and for taking the Report of Supply and the First Reading of the Appropriation Bill on the 21st inst. That is the latest date on which it can be taken. I have it on the authority of Sir E. Hamilton of the Treasury that the 28th inst. is the latest date on which the Royal Assent can be given consistently with the administration of the Treasury. That being so, we must have the first stage of the Appropriation Bill on the 21st. I have looked at the dates on which the Royal Assent has been given in previous years, and I find that they have varied from March 29th to the 28th. Where the 28th is necessary is where the 31st is a dies non, and this year it is a Sunday. The 29th is possible when the 31st is an ordinary week day. In 1893 we were obliged to take the Royal Assent on the 28th, because the 31st was a Good Friday. In order to make preparation for payments on April 1, it is necessary that there should be two working days intervening, that the business of the Treasury may be managed. It is very undesirable that these matters should be in dispute year after year. There should be some fixed rule; and it would be for the benefit of both sides to have some clear understanding of what are the requirements of the public service. In 1892 the right hon. Gentleman opposite fixed the 21st as the last day for Report of Supply; and his statement at that time was as follows:— Monday, March 21, is the last day on which the Appropriation Act can be introduced. That statement was made upon the same information which I have. On March 16th, 1893, I made a statement on the authority of Mr. Hamilton of the Treasury, and, in order that the House may clearly understand how the matter stands, I will quote it:— Until the Ways and Means Bill has received the Royal Assent in the usual manner, the Treasury are unable to take any steps with respect to the issue of the money required for the supplementary and excess grants for the expiring year. On the signification of the Royal Assent, the first proceeding is to obtain credit from the Audit Office, and to advise the departments that the money is available. Communications have to be made with Ireland, and it would be obviously imprudent to trust to the telegraph alone, without a written confirmation, for any error not detected before the close of the financial year is irreparable. It is evident, if the messenger only arrives on Wednesday afternoon, subsequently to which the Royal Assent has to be signified, any unpunctuality of the train would make it impossible to get written advices over to Ireland by post. At any rate, the risk is too great to admit of our being able to take the responsibility of being driven into such close quarters. I have a further statement, which is to the effect that the House had been on more than one occasion told that the Royal Assent to the Ways and Means Bill must be signified on, the second day before the close of the financial year. The present financial year closed on Saturday, the 30th, therefore the Royal Assent should be signified on the Thursday. In the statement it is further said that the reason for that is that the Treasury must have sufficient time to advise the departments that the money for meeting the payments to be made before the end of the financial year is available. Those advices must be given in writing, and must be confirmed in writing, and to enable that to be done the last Parliamentary stage of the Bill must be got through on Tuesday the 26th. That statement is consistent with what I have already said. I take it that the 28th is the fixed limit for the Royal assent to the Appropriation Bill. Under the circumstances I think it would be to the advantage of the House that we should have some fixed rule in the matter by which the House should be guided, so that the question should not be one for wrangle whenever it arises. I hope the House will act on the precedent of former times.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

said, it would be entirely out of order that he should attempt to argue the case which the right hon. Gentleman, in a very fair spirit, had put before them. If argument be necessary, the proper time for it would be later to-night. The last thing the Opposition desired was to drive the Government either into any illegality or to drive the departments into extreme inconvenience. If it should turn out that there were really important subjects in connection with the Estimates demanding discussion, would the Government give them an opportunity of discussing them on the Appropriation Bill itself?

SIR W. HARCOURT

said, that was a very fair demand, and he would certainly be prepared to meet it.

MR. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet)

asked if there would be any difficulty in putting the Report of Supply down as the first Order on Thursday, which would allow points to be raised for which there might not be time tonight?

SIR W. HARCOURT

promised to consider the point.

MR. R. W. HANBURY (Preston)

asked whether, as the time for getting the Supplementary Votes was so limited, the right hon. Gentleman would postpone all the Business for which there was not the same urgency. Would he, for instance, agree to the postponement of the Ordnance Factory Vote?

SIR W. HARCOURT

said, he was told that that was a Vote it was necessary to take to-night.