§ *MR. J. T. BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich)desired to bring to the notice of the Speaker a matter which he had submitted to him privately in writing, and of which he had given private notice to the right hon. Member for West Birmingham. He desired to know whether the right hon. Member for West Birmingham voted in last night's Division on the Motion of the right hon. Member for Bury, and whether the right hon. Member for West Birmingham endeavoured to pass out by the door facing the Chair after that door was locked, and whether the Serjeant-at-Arms refused to allow him to do so. He was informed that the right hon. Gentleman was in his place when the question was put, and if he was right in the statements suggested in the question; it remained for him to ask whether, under the circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman ought not to have recorded his vote?
§ MR. C. DIAMOND (Monaghan, N.)desired to supplement the question of the right hon. Member for the Northwich Division of Cheshire by directing the attention of the Speaker to the fact that several Nationalist Members were named and suspended on February 3, 1881, because, having heard the question put, they refused to vote; and it was desirable that the House should have the Speaker's ruling, so that hon. Members might know whether they might not openly refuse to vote, and might escape by the subterfuge of playing a game of hide-and-seek with the officials of the House.
§ MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN (Birmingham, W.)Allow me to say that I did not hear the question put.
§ *MR. SPEAKERI think it is too late to bring the matter forward now. It should have been brought to my notice yesterday immediately after the division, either before the numbers were declared or immediately after. Hon. Members who were present in the Lobby 1416 would have observed the action or non-action of the right hon. Gentleman, and, if it were to be noticed at all, it was their duty to have brought the matter immediately before me. With refrence to what the hon. Member for Monaghan has stated, I am sorry to have to revert to a matter so painful as that was. I was not Speaker at the time, but I well recollect the circumstance. The Irish Members were called on to leave the House to take part in the Division then in progress, and they declined to do so. The Speaker of that day, observing that a similar occurrence had happened shortly before, told them that it was their duty to leave the House and take part in the Division, and on their persistent refusal submitted their conduct to the House. That, however, is an entirely different question from the one now raised, and there is no analogy between the two cases.
§ *MR. BRUNNERWill you allow me, Mr. Speaker, to bring to your notice what Sir Erskine May has said on this question? In his "Parliamentary Practice," page 338, in the chapter on "Divisions," he says:—
A Member who is within the folding doors of the House when the question is put from the Chair for the first or second time must give his vote. If he has not heard the question put, either the first or the second time, the question is again stated to him from the Chair, and if he has entered a Division Lobby he may therefore claim to give his vote irrespective of the Division Lobby into which he may have passed. If a Member has heard the question put, then his vote must accord with the Division Lobby that he has entered.And in a note on the same page Sir Erskine May adds—The rooms behind the Speaker's Chair are not within the House for the purposes of a Division, and Members may retire to these rooms after the House has been cleared for a Division, and before the question has been put from the Chair a second time.The right hon. Gentleman did not retire from the House before the question was put a second time, but afterwards.
§ *MR. SPEAKERThe case referred to does not now arise, and I cannot go into that matter now. If the hon. Member asks for my ruling on the general question involved I shall be happy to give it. The general rule is, that Members who have heard the question put, either the first or second time, ought to go into the Lobby and vote. I have known the side 1417 door held open that Members in the Division Lobby might hear the question put. It is as well, however, not to insist upon Members having heard the question put, because owing to the imperfect accommodation of the House this is frequently impossible; but, speaking generally, Members within the folding doors should record their votes. The hon. Gentleman has alluded to the rooms behind the Chair. There was a case in which Sir Henry Drummond Wolff, then a Member of this House, called the attention of the Speaker to the fact that several Members on the Treasury Bench deliberately left their seats on a Division being called, and did not appear in either Division Lobby. The Speaker of that day ruled that they were intitled to withdraw. Though Members go into the Lobby, I do not know that it is absolutely imperative that they should vote. Members go into the Lobby, but to my knowledge they do not always come out of the Lobby. I do not think it is possible for the House to maintain that a Member shall be forced to vote. I think it would lead to some very disagreeable consequences if all Members in the House were forced to vote, but it is convenient that they should withdraw before the question is finally put. Some Members are accidentally shut within the outer doors of the House and do not wish to record their vote, and there are means of escape which are known to Members. No Member is allowed, after the outer doors are closed, as they were on this occasion by the Serjeant-at Arms, to have egress from the House into the outer Lobby. What becomes of him inside the doors is another matter.
§ *MR. BRUNNERI wish to add, as one who will always pay respect to you, that it was impossible for me, until the Division List came into my hands this morning, to know that the right hon. Gentleman had not voted.