SECOND READING. (Hansard, 19 February 1895)

§ MR. G. C. T. BARTLEY (Islington),
1186 said, he did not wish in any way to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, but he desired to call attention to the very different treatment Ireland received from that which England received. This was a measure of which they all approved, and it placed public money at the disposal of the small farmers of Ireland. Although public money was freely lent to small farmers, because they had a compact body of supporters in this House, it treated with scant courtesy the grievances of the English farmers, although the English farmer was financially in a worse position than the Irish farmer. This difference of treatment was a matter which was worth some consideration.

MR. J. MORLEY
would remind the hon. Member that this Bill did not propose to make a present to the Irish farmers, but only advanced them money by way of loan. Such a loan was made in 1890 and 1891, when the right hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. A. Balfour) was Chief Secretary, and of that loan only about £2,000 was outstanding.

§ MR. BARTLEY
But money is not lent to the English farmer.

MR. J. MORLEY
I am not concerned with that; it is not in my Department.

§ MR. T. W. RUSSELL
wished to ask whether the Local Government Board retained any control over the selection of the seed potatoes, or whether the matter was left entirely to the Boards of Guardians. Those bodies had a prejudice in favour of "Champions," and there was a general feeling among experts in the north of Ireland that that variety was rather worn out. He had received several letters on that point, and he therefore inquired in whom the discretion would be vested as to the selection of the seed potatoes, and whether any control would be exercised.

§ DR. TANNER (Mid. Cork)
? said, that in many cases the "Champion" potato was found to have fallen away from the standard which had made it popular, but the facts were well-known, and the Boards of Guardians in the south of Ireland were perfectly capable of dealing with the matter.

§ MR. T. SEXTON (Kerry, N.)
said, he was assured by Guardians and others capable of forming an accurate opinion, that the time allowed by the Bill for 1187 repayment was too short. As soon as distress was felt from a short potato crop, there was a great increase in the price of potatoes, and when the Guardians began to buy there was a further increase, until the price of potatoes became double what it was a year ago. The result was that the prices charged by Guardians was so high that farmer's would be unable to meet the loan out of the next year's potato crop. He thought two years in a season of distress with the poorest people in the poorest part of Ireland was an exacting term, and he urged that it should be extended.

§ *MR. D. CRILLY (Mayo, N.)
said, these poor people had shown their willingness to repay the money advanced by the Government, but it was clear from the reports of the Local Government Board that they could not meet their liabilities within two years. He asked the Chief Secretary to comply with the reasonable and humane request of the hon. Member for North Kerry and extend the time for repayment. Some of the Irish Boards of Guardians were not disposed to supply seed potatoes unless easier terms were given.

MR. J. MORLEY
said, they had appointed a number of temporary Inspectors—he believed 18 or 20—whose special object it was to examine the purchases of potatoes made by the Boards of Guardians, and without whose authority no purchases under this Act could be made. In regard to the desire for an extension of time, it was a remarkable thing that of the loan made in 1891 only £2,000 remained outstanding, and that was entirely in three extremely poor unions. The contention was that if a longer time was given they would have no security that those who had the payment of the advances would be called upon to repay them, as they might die. If a number of years were taken, then the burden would devolve upon the ratepayers. He would remind the hon. Member for North Kerry that they took power in this Bill for the Local Government Board to extend the period of time in case there should be some good reason. The Local Government Board would not be sorry to do without this power, but after the circumstances which had been brought to the attention of the House by the hon. Member for North Kerry on that and on previous occasions, he thought 1188 it would not be safe to deprive them of the power of giving a longer time for paying than under the ordinary conditions. If that hon. Gentleman would place his reliance on the wide and extended experience of the Local Government Board officials, he would find that the Government, in framing the Bill, had not gone far wide of the mark.

§ MR. M. M. BODKIN (Roscommon, N.)
said, he had not risen before because he had hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would have assented to the request of the hon. Member for Kerry. The right hon. Gentleman had not done so, and yet he had given the House additional arguments in favour of the view of that hon. Member. The Chief Secretary had said, that the Local Government Board were reluctant to accept this dispensing power; but the fact was, they were reluctant to accept it because they did not want to use it. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to the prompt payment of the money which had been previously advanced, but did not know the amount of pressure, and poverty, and suffering which was entailed by the enforcement of that prompt payment. The Exchequer was absolutely secure in this matter. The rates were also amply secured, but if the ratepayers and Guardians were pressed for payment, the people in their turn would be pressed also. The people were already in a condition of want, and the large price charged for the seed would nearly cover the entire price of the crop they would raise from it. Some remark had been made about the change of tenancies making repayment insecure, but Irish tenants did not change their places like English labourers; they stuck to their holdings, unless the landlords turned them out. He wished the right hon. Gentleman, who was responsible as the guardian of the Exchequer, had considered more the position of the poor Irish agriculturist under existing circumstances, bearing in mind that the British Exchequer would have no risk whatever, and that the Irish Party voiced the unanimous opinion of their constituents, that a little longer time for paying the money would be a substantial benefit to the destitute tenants.