CHITRAL. (Hansard, 19 August 1895)

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
hoped that, in view of the fact that important papers had not yet been presented, that the late Secretary for India had left the House, and that it was well the Debate on the Address should be finished to-night, the hon. Member (Sir William Wedderburn) who had an Amendment on the Paper relating to affairs in Chitral would postpone his Amendment till a more convenient season.

§ SIR W. HARCOURT
said that until they were in possession of the further communications on this subject it would be impossible to come to a decided opinion. In the absence of the further papers and of the late Secretary for India, who had left the House under the impression that questions relating to Chitral would not be raised to-night, he trusted that the suggestion of the Leader of the House would be agreed to.

MR. T. M. HEALY
said the First Lord of the Treasury had just made an important communication to the House. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the late Secretary of State for India had left the House. That pointed to the fact of the lateness of the Sitting. No one knew better than he did that the First Lord of the Treasury was always most anxious to study the general convenience of Members, but the hon. Member who was anxious to move this Motion was in this position: The Government had said important papers were going to be laid on the Table. No one was more entitled to speak on the question with greater experience than his hon. friend the Member for Banffshire. His hon. friend proposed to raise it on the present information. He was anxious to move it in regard to the present position of his mind. The Government, however, were anxious to improve his mind by the presentation of 358 other papers. He would, therefore, ask whether, in the event of the hon. Baronet giving way on his motion to-night, the Government were prepared to say, first, when the papers would be presented, and, secondly, whether they were prepared to give a day for the discussion of the subject. In order to give the First Lord an opportunity to reply, he moved the adjournment of the Debate.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
My noble Friend the Secretary for India informs me that he hopes all the papers will be laid on the Table, and circulated before the end of the week. Whether it would be proper to give a day in addition to the day on the Indian Budget to discuss the view of hon. Gentlemen opposite I can hardly say until I know what view they take of the papers, except they desire to move a vote of censure, in which case, of course, we shall give a day. But, in the absence of any such view, I cannot help thinking that the Indian Budget, which cannot now be long delayed, will afford a full opportunity for the discussion of this matter.

§ SIR W. WEDDERBURN
said he regretted that he could not meet the wishes of the right hon. Gentlemen. He felt it his duty to raise his voice, however feeble, on behalf of the people of India in this matter. Amid all the varying and powerful interests struggling for precedence in the House, he felt that ho should be wrong in abandoning this real chance of promoting the interests of India. [Cheers.]

§ MR. DALZIEL
hoped that the Leader of the House would now recognise—[Ministrial Cries of "Oh!"]—the force of the Motion for adjournment. He must see that this was not a frivolous attempt to keep the House sitting or to raise a question of secondary importance. The hon. Gentleman in charge of the Chitral amendment said that he regarded the question as of supreme and vital importance. The hon. Member assured the House that he had a speech which would occupy an hour at least in delivery—[Laughter]—and the hon. Member for Flintshire was also prepared to speak for a considerable length of time. Therefore, he hoped the Government would at once do what they might have to do in any case at a later stage of the Debate—consent to the adjournment. [Opposition Cheers.]

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
I move "That the question be now put."

§ MR. SPEAKER
The question is, that the question be now put.

§ MR. DALZIEL
I rise to a point of order.

§ MR. SPEAKER
There can be no point of order.

§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
I beg to move "That the Main Question be now put." [Loud cheers.]

§ MR. SPEAKER
then put the question that the House do agree with the Address in answer to the Queen's Speech.

MR. T. M. HEALY,
sitting with his hat on, spoke to a point of order, submitting that the question of the Closure should be put in the first instance before the main question was put.

§ MR. SPEAKER
The practice I have followed is the usual practice. ["Hear, hear."]

MR. T. M. HEALY
said that he desired to raise the point of order that the House must first divide upon the question of the Closure before it divided upon the main question.

§ MR. SPEAKER
said that, of course, if the hon. Gentleman wished to raise a fresh point of order he would listen to him.

MR. T. M. HEALY
The original question upon which the Closure was moved was not a question dependent before the House. It was a question of adjournment. It was upon a question of adjournment that the Closure was moved, and that constitutes a distinction.

§ MR. SPEAKER
The Closure was moved upon the adjournment. Thereupon that question was put to the House and was disposed of. After that, the right hon. Gentleman claimed, as he was entitled to do, that the question which was before the House before the Motion for adjournment was moved should be put to the House. That proceeding being entirely in order, I put it to the House. I may say that I should not in any event read the rule as the hon. and learned Member has read it, but even if 360 I did, I should feel some hesitation in acting, in any event, contrary to the course which has been followed as long as I have been a Member of the House, and the closure has been in operation. [Ministerial cheers.]