HC Deb 14 June 1894 vol 25 cc1075-7
MR. T. W. RUSSELL

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that notice was issued by District Inspector Pearson to the promoters of a public meeting which was proposed to be held at Dysart on Sunday the 3rd of June last, that the meeting would not be permitted to be held within one mile of the farm at Lisnamucklagh from which Michael Galely was evicted on the 18th of May, 1885, nor within half a mile of the house of John Murray, of Ballytinan; and if he can state the principle upon which the Police Authorities now act in deciding as between a mile and half a mile as the limit within which meetings may lawfully be held?

MR. MACARTNEY (Antrim, S.)

At the same time, I may ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention has been directed to the following Order issued by the District Inspector of Constabulary in connection with the Dysart meeting on the 3rd of June, in which he states that the meeting would not be permitted to be held within one mile of the farm in Lisnamucklagh, from which Michael Galely was evicted on the 18th of May, 1885, nor within half a mile of the house of John Murray, of Ballytinan, signed Edward H. Pearson, District Inspector, R. I. C.; and whether these distinctions in distance were adopted by the advice of the Law Officers in Ireland?

MR. J. MORLEY

The answer to these questions is very simple. The distance between the evicted farm and the house in which Murray, who has taken the farm, lives is one mile and a half. Both farm and house are on the road leading to Carrowreagh village, the house being midway between the farm and village. The local police had reason to believe that a meeting would be held on this road just outside the mile limit from the farm, which would place the meeting in close proximity to Murray's house. In order to avoid this contingency the arrangement referred to in the questions was adopted, and the entire ground between the farm and Murray's house was thus covered. The selection of the distance in such cases is a matter of executive discretion, each case being considered on its own merits, and the Law Officers are not consulted.

MR. MACARTNEY

Do I understand with regard to this that a meeting which is primâ facie illegal becomes legal when held 1,761 yards away from the place originally chosen?

MR. J. MORLEY

I do not admit that primâ facie it was illegal.

MR. MACARTNEY

Then why prohibit it?

MR. J. MORLEY

The prohibition affects not the meeting, but where it was to be held.

*MR. T. W. RUSSELL

If a meeting is illegal when held at a certain place, how can it be made legal if it is held 1,760 yards away? On what principle does the right hon. Gentleman proceed in deciding that intimidation will be dangerous close to an evicted farm, and that it will lose all its dangerous characteristics if held a mile or half a mile away?

MR. J. MORLEY

The amount of intimidation depends, of course, upon the degree of pressure brought to bear on the person. The hon. Member cannot really mean that distance has nothing to do with the question we have to decide. Will he contend that the meeting would have been illegal, and should have been suppressed if held in Palace Yard?

MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Belfast, W.)

May I ask if the Chief Secretary is aware that what happened was this—that the police paced out 1,760 yards at the head of the mob and then stopped—[Interruption from the Nationalist Members]—and the meeting then took place, being held by the mob which had followed the police from the place.

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The hon. Member is entitled to put a question, but with all this disturbance it is impossible to hear the terms of it.

MR. J. MORLEY

It is impossible to lay down any cast-iron rule, or any rule, which could be devised to obviate the kind of criticism just made by the hon. Member. What I would point out is this—that this Go- vernment's exercise of executive discretion—and this case is an exercise of it—has done more to reduce intimidation than the measures which used to find favour with the hon. Member.

MR. W. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)

Can the right hon. Gentleman say if a meeting would be legal—

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! These abstract questions of legality or illegality are not in Order.

MR. W. JOHNSTON

Mr. Speaker, I wish to—

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order!