HC Deb 20 August 1894 vol 29 cc89-98

22. Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £3,l55,589, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1895, for Public Education in England and Wales, including Expenses of the Education Office in London.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said, this was really a very important Vote. Several questions were to be raised upon it; information was required from the Government on several points, and he proposed, therefore, to move to report Progress, in order that he might elicit some information as to the intentions of the Government in regard to affording a proper opportunity for discussing it.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."£(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

SIR W. HARCOURT

said, he had received a communication that afternoon to the effect it was very much desired that the Education Vote should not be taken that night.

SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT

When will the Report of the 1st June be taken?

SIR W. HARCOURT

Not until tomorrow.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I will not press the Motion for Progress.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

23. £361,122, to complete the sum for Science and Art Department.

DR. CLARK

said, he regretted being unable to allow that Vote to pass on account of the action of the Treasury, and if they failed to give him a promise that his views would be met in regard to the grants he would have to press the matter to a Division.

MR. BARTLEY

Is not this included in the Education Vote which it has been arranged shall be discussed to-morrow?

SIR W. HARCOURT

Yes. I do not think it is quite fair to those hon. Members who have gone away on the understanding that the Education Vote will not be taken to-morrow. I hope the hon. Member will postpone his remarks till to-morrow.

DR. CLARK

I was no party to that agreement. I passed the matter over last-year, and I am not going to do so again; I might have raised it on No. 7 Vote— that for the Universities and Colleges of Great Britain.

SIR W. HARCOURT

Will it not do to-morrow?

DR. CLARK

Yes; but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. He had better go on with his remarks. The injustice to Scotland was so patent that he hoped to get some satisfaction from the Treasury. His complaint was that while about £20,000 was spent upon the Royal College of Science in London, and £7,000 upon the Royal College of Science in Dublin, no assistance was given to the College of Science in Glasgow, an Institution which was started a century ago, and from which all these Colleges of Science had sprung. It had been attempting for years to get from the Treasury some grant for the same kind of work as was subsidised by the Government in kindred Institutions, so that Scotch boys might be educated at home, instead of being compelled to come up to London to take up scholarships and exhibitions. If these grants were made to Ireland, why were they not made to Scotland? It had been suggested that the grant could not be made to the Glasgow College because it did not teach arts as well as science; but surely that was not a sufficient reason for excluding it entirely from this Vote. There were plenty of other places where the arts were taught. Unless he got some stronger reason he would have to move a reduction of the Vote.

MR. BRYCE

said, his hon. Friend seemed to complain that Scotland had allotted to it an insufficient share of the grant for Universities and Colleges in Great Britain.

DR. CLARK

No; that point I intend to raise under another Vote. We complain that while you spend £20,000 for certain purposes in England, and £7,000 in Ireland, you refuse Scotland money altogether for the same purposes.

SIR J. T. HIBBERT

replied that the case of England and Ireland differed from that of Scotland, which got its fair share of the grant for technical education. The Education Department Committee decided that the Technical College of Glasgow had no claim for a grant out of the £15,000 distributed by the Committee.

DR. CLARK

said, he was not complaining of the general science and arts grant, because Scotland got more of that than either England or Ireland. He was speaking particularly of two Votes, one to the Royal College of Science in London—known formerly as the School of Mines. In that Institution there were four Professors at £800 a year and some at £400, five assistants at £600 and £400 a year, lecturers at £200 a year, a Museum, 12 Exhibitions at £50 a year, and several Scholarships at £15 a year. In all, in that College £20,000 a year was spent on technical education in training young men as engineers and fitting them to take charge of chemical works and of mines. There was a similar Institution in Ireland, and thus English and Irish boys were granted special facilities. But Scotland was refused a share of the money voted by Parliament for these Institutions, although they had in that country an Institution started a century ago fully competent to give technical education. Not only was a grant refused, but the Treasury had refused to listen to a deputation on the subject.

SIR J. T. HIBBERT

repeated that the claim of the Glasgow Institution had already been inquired into by the proper authorities and rejected.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint, &c.)

said, he desired to draw the attention of the Committee to the Vote, with a view to showing the injustice with which the Principality of Wales was treated in regard to Museum grants. Of late years the House had begun to recognise the great debt which the United Kingdom owed to Wales in the matter of education. The country was comparatively poor; its educational endowments had been until recently extremely small; the people were enthusiastically devoted to the cause of education; and the money which had been spent there for educational purposes had been well applied. He admitted in recent years they had received grants for their University Colleges, and during this year the present Government had earned the gratitude of the Welsh people by granting a Charter to the Welsh University. He desired especially to acknowledge the great services which the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Acland) had rendered to Wales in this respect. No English Minister had ever taken a truer, deeper, or more heartfelt interest in Wales than the right hon. Gentleman. He (Mr. Herbert Lewis) had had the honour to be associated with him in educational work outside the walls of this House, and the ardour with which he threw himself into the organisation of intermediate education in Wales, and subsequently the success with which he advocated the claims of Wales to a National University, not to speak of his cordial recognition of the Welsh language in elementary schools, had earned for him the gratitude and esteem of Welshmen. But what Wales had received from the Imperial Parliament was only an instalment of what was due to her. Speaking on another Vote on Saturday last, he proved that Wales had been a loser of over £110,000 by the policy of the Woods and Forests Department, and in many other ways Wales had a strong claim—he would not say upon the generosity—but upon the justice of England. Now in regard to this particular grant he found that the sum of £20,385 was voted for the Dublin Museum of Science and Art, £6,908 for the Dublin Royal College of Science, £300 for the Royal Hibernian Academy, and £12,606 for the Edinburgh Museum of Science and Art, making a total for Scotland and Ireland of £40,199. These grants were in addition to the large grants made to Universities and University Colleges in Ireland and Scotland. The figures he had given included no expenditure on capital account; that belonged to a former year, and he was precluded by the Rules of the House from referring to it except to say that the Government, very wisely he thought, a short time ago presented Ireland with a National Museum and Library at a, cost which did not fall far short of £150,000. He made no complaint whatever of these grants, but he did claim that the right of Wales to a due share of them should be recognised. If they were told that they had their share in the British Museum, he replied that every Scotchman from Glasgow or every Irishman from Dublin had the same property in the British Museum that every Welshman from Carnarvon or Cardiff had. His point in this connection was that Wales, like Ireland and Scotland, had her own separate system of education, and that a National Museum, Library, and Art Gallery were necessary to complete it. On elementary education a separate Report was issued for Wales, and separate provisions were made in the Code in regard, for instance, to the teaching of the Welsh language. Wales had her own intermediate school system, and in regard to higher education they had a Welsh University to which most of the Colleges in Wales were affiliated. Just as they had their share in the British Museum, so they had their share in the University of London, but that had not prevented them from having a separate University for Wales. The separate educational needs of Wales had been repeatedly recognised by Liberal and Conservative Governments, and all they asked was that that policy should be carried to its just and logical conclusion, and that regard should be paid to the representations made by all the best educational authorities in Wales. It was well-known that a great deal more was done for Museums on the Continent than in this country. There was no country in the world whore education had been brought to such a high pitch of perfection as Switzerland, nor was there any country where the value of Museums in connection with elementary and inter mediate education was more thoroughly realised. In Switzerland, Museums were attached even to elementary schools. The teachers found them extremely useful in aiding them to impart object-lessons to their scholars; old scholars, took a pride in their School Museums, and they frequently enriched them by making presents of articles which they had brought from foreign countries. The Swiss were a thoroughly practical people; they had found education to pay in the lower and more material sense as well as in the higher interests of life, find the fact that they attached a high value to Museums was of considerable significance. Now that the intermediate school system had been established in Wales, he hoped that a portion of this Museum grant would be set aside in future for the purpose of enabling them to have Museums attached to those schools. Owing to the enormous extension of technical teaching, in consequence of the expenditure by English County Councils of the money accruing to them under the Local Taxation Act, the demands upon South Kensington had increased very considerably, and it would be far more difficult in future than it had been in the past for local schools to obtain models and plaster casts from South Kensington. A Welsh Museum, supported by Imperial funds, would do much to overcome this difficulty. There was another side to the Museum question of considerable interest. He referred to collections of antiquities and of historical objects. Wales, he regretted to say, had lost many of her most valuable antiquities. One constantly heard accounts of the way in which treasures of great antiquarian value were lost because there was no common centre to which they could be taken. Notwithstanding the dispersion of many private collections, he believed that there were still a, large number of articles of historical value which could be placed in a National Museum, and there would in the future be many a private collector who would be only too glad to bequeath to the safe keeping of the nation the treasures which he had spent a lifetime in acquiring. But there was a practical side to the Museum question, as everyone who took an interest in educational matters was well aware. A Museum of Science and Act was a necessary supple ment to technical education, and in the interests of agricultural education, and of the trades and industries represented in Wales, he asked the right hon. Gentleman to grant them their reasonable request. The grants to Scotland and Ireland also included provision for National Libraries. Wales was, perhaps, as deserving in this respect as any country in the world. The Welsh people, as a whole, were more addicted to literature than any other people, and yet they had no National Library of their own, and not a penny was granted from Imperial funds for this purpose. There was no common national centre to which ancient manuscripts and books of historical value could be brought. Then, again, while Scotland and Ireland were provided with National Galleries, Wales received nothing under this head. Much might be done to encourage native Art. The natural beauty of the country had caused a number of artists to make Wales their home, at all events during the summer months. They had founded an Academy of Art, and they deserved every encouragement. In view of the excellent use to which educational grants to Wales had been applied, and having regard to the injustice with which Wales had been treated in the matter of Imperial grants generally, in connection with such subjects as light railways and fisheries, he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see his way to performing an act of justice to Wales by giving Wales a share of the Museum grants. He would thereby promote the study of Literature, Science and Art in the Principality, and those great moral and material interests to which those studies so largely contributed.

SIR W. HARCOURT

said, he did not think it could be said that the claims of Wales had been neglected by him. The Government would always be ready to consider the claims of Wales, and he submitted that the Government had some right to claim that in the past Session they had not neglected the interests of Wales.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

again assured the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there was no want of gratitude on the part of Welsh Members for the grants recently made to Wales. They were exceedingly grateful to him. But his contention was that these grants were only instalments of justice, and he only wished it were possible to have an inquiry into the financial relations between England and Wales. He was sure that Wales would not be found the debtor, and that the justice of his claim on behalf of Wales would be vindicated.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made no answer to the claim of Wales to a fair share of these Museum grants. There was no point in the statement of the hon. Member for Islington that there were parts of England which were treated in the same fashion as Wales.

MR. WEIR

said, he was glad to hear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was treating the case of Wales in a liberal spirit, and he wished to appeal to him on the part of the Celt in the Highlands. He would like to have loans of works of art for the use of the girls and boys at Stornoway, Inverness, Ding-wall, and other centres in the Highlands.

MR. BARTLEY

said, he thought Wales got a full share of consideration in this matter. He knew something about the matter, because he was at South Kensington for 20 years.

Vote agreed to.

The following Votes were agreed to:—

  1. 24. £80,279, to complete the sum for British Museum.
  2. 25. £11,368 (including a Supplementary sum of £5,000), to complete the sum for National Gallery.
  3. 26. £825, to complete the sum for National Portrait Gallery.
  4. 27. £14,247, to complete the sum for Scientific Investigation, &c.
  5. 28. £50,094, to complete the sum for Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales.

DR. CLARK

called attention to the case of Dundee College. He said it had been agreed that Dundee should have £500 for one year, as it was to become a College of the University of St. Andrews. That was six years ago, but Dundee College had not become a portion of the University of St. Andrews, and the recommendation of the last Committee which sat was that it should get no money, but he understood that a supplementary sum was to be given to Dundee College. By the Treaty of Union, the maintenance of the Scottish National Gallery and the Scottish Universities were portions of the liabilities which the Imperial Parliament was to take up. Six years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed that £42,000 should be handed over to the Universities Commission for the four Scottish Universities, and since then £30,000 had been added out of the local taxation account, that amount being based on a theory as to the proportions paid by England, Ireland, and Scotland towards Probate Duty. What he wanted was a, fair equivalent for Scotland for the money spent for educational purposes in England and Ireland. He believed that the Science and Art Department were using the word "arts" in the sense of languages. He thought the scientific branch of education was of much more importance than the classical, and he should be sorry if they were going on the old monkish ways, and were going to support classics in preference to science. Dundee was an Arts College, a Medical College, a Science College, a College teaching, in fact, every department except, he believed, theology. If grants were given to the Colleges in connection with the Victoria University and other Universities, he thought Dundee ought to have her fair share. Three Committees had sat upon the subject. The first of them suggested £500 for Dundee; the second had suggested that Dundee should get her fair share, but the last had made a different recommendation. He believed that the President of the Board of Trade was a member of both Committees, and perhaps he could say why the last Committee had gone contrary to the recommendations of the previous Committee.

SIR W. HARCOURT

My hon. Friend might have spared his speech if he had known the facts of the case. The real truth is that I settled this matter of the Dundee College some weeks ago with the hon. Member for Dundee on a footing which he thinks entirely satisfactory. The last Committee did not consider that the Dundee College could have this grant on account of the measures now being taken to affiliate it to the University, but those measures are not yet complete, and therefore I think that the grant Dundee already has should be continued for a year at least, until it is affiliated to the University, when it will derive much larger advantages. Until the future situation of Dundee is settled, the status in quo is regarded as satisfactory by the authorities at Dundee.

DR. CLARK

said, the Government were simply doing again what was done six years ago when they granted only £500 instead of £1,200. It was not fair, because the Scotch people were using the money not for local taxes but for educational purposes, to refuse to give them a fair share of the grant for secondary and higher education. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if the Dundee College were affiliated to St. Andrews University it would get its share of the £50,000 grant. But that grant was their own money. It was the old story of the equivalent. Scotland ought to have an equivalent for what England got.

MR. CALDWELL

said, there was a note in the Estimates stating that the money was granted under Section 25 of the Universities (Scotland) Act of 1889 in full discharge of all claims on public money. The Scotch Members could not allow an observation of that kind to go unchallenged, as the Universities Act was only passed upon the understanding that similar words were struck out of it.

SIR W. HARCOURT

I am entirely against remarks being put in the Estimates, and therefore I am perfectly willing to strike out every remark of this character which is entirely irrelevant to an Estimate.

Vote agreed to.

The following Votes were agreed to:—

29. £5, to complete the sum for London University.

30. £485,449, to complete the sum for Public Education, Scotland.

31. £2,150, to complete the sum for National Gallery, &c., Scotland.

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