§
10. Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum. not exceeding £90,621, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1894, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board.
§ SIR J. GORSTdesired the President of the Local Government Board to afford the Committee some explanation, in addition to that he gave at Question time, of the proposal made by certain Boards of Guardians in the East of London to acquire land for the purpose of setting the unemployed to work upon it. He thought it was impossible to exaggerate the importance of a question of this kind, because if there was one thing more than another which the electors of the country really took an interest in it was in the reform of the Poor Law and any experiment tried in the direction of a reform of the Poor Law was sure to excite the greatest possible interest on the part of the people of this country, and if any successful experiment could be carried out it would redound more than anything else they could do to the credit of the Minister and the Government under which it was conducted. He believed this question of the unemployed 1027 was one which might at any time become acute, and give immense trouble and difficulty both to the Government and to Parliament, and it was one well deserving the careful and anxious consideration not only of the Government, but of the House itself. It appeared, from researches made and from information placed before the Local Government Board, that there was now under old Statutes which had long fallen into disuse power vested in the Boards of Guardians to acquire land not exceeding 50 acres for each parish, and upon that land to set unemployed persons to work at remunerative occupations and to give them reasonable wages. For many years past the London Guardians had practised a very clumsy kind of public employment. There was in every Union a most barbarous institution known as a stone-yard, and in that yard able-bodied men who applied for work were set to the work of breaking up stones for macadam. They were not paid according to the quantity of work they did, and it was a sort of labour test. The men had to break a certain quantity of stone in the day, and then they were paid not in proportion to the work they had done, but in the shape of outdoor relief according to their needs and to the number of their family. The system was objectionable, and had never answered in practice. It had had the effect of pauperising the recipients of the relief, and had certainly failed to relieve a great amount of distress. There was no idea more fascinating to anyone than that of a Public Authority like a Board of Guardians being able to give an honest man out of work, who was anxious to work and could not get it to do, to give him employment and pay him not in the relief which a pauper would receive, but to pay him what these old Statutes called reasonable wages for the work which he did. In social questions they must make a great number of experiments—and some experiments which would fail—before they hit upon a right mode of meeting the social difficulties with which they were surrounded. He did not at all enter into the feelings of a man who never tried anything because he thought it might fail. In science how many scientific men had tried experiments which had been failures; how many ideas had been adopted by men of science which, after trial and experiment, 1028 had had to be abandoned! It was just the same in social matters. They should make a number of experiments and make an immense number of failures, and they should have to go through a period of trial and failure before they arrived at a solution of social difficulties. No doubt failures would be experienced; but when there were people willing to try experiments and entrusted by the ratepayers with power to do so, it seemed to him that the Government should afford them every facility that could be afforded consistently with the law. There were several unions in the East of London who anxiously desired to try the experiment of acquiring land for the purpose of setting the unemployed to work if the President of the Local Government Board would authorise them to do so. They could not do so without permission. He thought that Local Authorities were now too much interfered with by the Local Government Board. That was not fair, and he would press upon the right hon. Gentleman that, unless there were some very serious objections not yet publicly stated, he would allow these publicly-elected Bodies to try these experiments. He might point out that experiments of the kind had been tried for the last two years by the Salvation Army. He did not know whether those experiments had been an economical success; but anyone who would take the trouble to go down to the Army farm in Essex would see that, as a method of getting people actually to work—people recruited from the riff-raff of the East End of London—they had not been a failure. It seemed to him that in the light of those experiments Boards of Guardians might make most valuable experiments themselves, which could not possibly do any harm, which would certainly be productive of instruction, and might guide them in the direction in which this great social problem might be solved.
§ SIR C. W. DILKE (Gloucester, Forest of Dean)said, those who were acquainted with the experiments referred to by the right hon. Gentleman would recognise the difficulties that existed in carrying out his suggestion. The vast majority of those who came under the care of Boards of Guardians were either old or sick. They could not be looked upon as able-bodied people, very few of 1029 whom remained with them long. At the same time, he was entirely in accord with the right hon. Gentleman in his desire to see Boards of Guardians permitted to make experiments. Undoubtedly the tendency of the time was more and more in the direction of local control in these matters. With regard to the cholera epidemic, he had the most complete confidence in the Local Government Board, and he was of opinion that there was not the slightest cause for alarm. All, he was satisfied, that could be done had been done. But there was another and more delicate question to which he would direct attention. He wished to suggest to the Local Government Board that they should select their auditors from experienced auditors' clerks. He acknowledged that the President of the Local Government Board had heretofore exercised his patronage most carefully, and he had the fullest confidence in him; but he thought it right to bring this matter before him. He believed there had been only one such vacancy, and that the right hon. Gentleman had followed the course now suggested by him (Sir C. W. Dilke). He hoped he would continue to follow that course. And, again, the general Inspectors should be selected from the best class of auditors.
§ MR. LONG (Liverpool, West Derby)said, he sympathised with the desire of the right hon. Gentleman for the employment of the unemployed, but he could not approve of his proposal. He did not think that anyone who was acquainted with the working of the Salvation Army farm would endorse his right hon. Friend's (Sir J. Gorst's) opinion. In saying that, he did not intend to refer to the Salvation Army itself; the farm colony was another matter altogether. He thought it had been made clear that, through the attempts of the Salvation Army to deal with this problem, considerable industries had been destroyed; and that in employing one set of people others had been submerged. It was the duty of the Local Government Board to so advise the Local Authorities that their action should be taken in the interests of the community as a whole, and not calculated merely to meet a difficulty which might be tem- 1030 porary and local. He did not think that the Local Government Board were likely to hold out much encouragement in the direction indicated by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Gorst), because if they were to encourage Local Authorities to find work for the unemployed that work could only be of two kinds. It must either be work which was unnecessary or work which was necessary and must be done. If the work was necessary it could only be done in the way indicated by the displacement of free labour.
§ SIR J. GORSTNot necessarily.
§ MR. LONGsaid, his right hon. Friend said "not necessarily," but there must be displacement, and he would point out in addition that it would be a dangerous thing to raise hopes in the minds of the unemployed unless they were certain they could give practical effect to what they desired. As to what had been said by the right hon. Baronet (Sir C. W. Dilke) of the cholera scare, everybody who had any experience of the Local Government Board would have full confidence in the zeal and efficiency of its officers. He had also confidence in the Local Authorities. There ought, however, to be at the disposal of the Local Government Board, as the Public Health Department of the country, a larger power of spending money in emergencies, and the Sanitary Department ought to be better equipped in that respect. That Department was fortunate at the present time in having the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. H. Fowler) at its head, and, not merely that, but in having such distinguished officials and professional men to guide it. But when this country was threatened with the outbreak of an epidemic it ought to have larger power of spending money, and it should be provided with the means of indulging in experiments in any particular direction. The Department had, however, no funds at its disposal to undertake experiments. He believed the labour attendant upon holding local inquiries had greatly increased.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. H. H. FOWLER,) Wolverhampton, E.Doubled in four years.
§ MR. LONGsaid, as the work had increased, increased power should be given. Again, he would point out that the staff of Medical Inspectors should be strengthened. He believed that there was no cause for alarm in reference to the outbreak of cholera. On the contrary, he thought the scare which had been created had proved a safeguard, as it had directed attention to the necessity of taking precautions. He was confident that, in the hands of the President of the Local Government Board and the permanent officials of the Department, they were as safe as human ingenuity could make them. He believed that the President would be able to give a satisfactory report to the House as to the present cases.
§ SIR H. ROSCOEsaid, he desired to express his hearty sympathy with what had fallen from the hon. Member for the West Derby Division. He had the highest opinion of the medical officers of the Local Government Board, but he agreed with the hon. Member that their number and the means at their disposal for carrying out important investigations were too small. The hon. Member had remarked that abroad the condition of things was very different, and he (Sir H. Roscoe), from his own experiences, also agreed with the hon. Member in that. Governments in other countries had large and important establishments for the very purpose of carrying out investigations which we attempted in a small manner to carry out under this important Department. The attention of the country ought to be drawn to the matter, for there was nothing in this country comparable to the institutions existing in Berlin, St. Petersburg, and Paris. They all had confidence in the President of the Local Government Board, and those who acted under him; and if the attention of the country were drawn to this matter, he was sure we should not long be behind other countries in these matters. He believed that the country was free at present from the danger of anything like a large outbreak of cholera. He had full confidence in the arrangements that had been made by the Department and by the Local Authorities.
MR. POWELL WILLIAMSsaid, the hon. Member who had just sat down seemed to open a non possumus to what he did not think the right hon. Member for Cambridge University had suggested. The matter was of some importance in view of the condition of things which might be expected in the forthcoming winter. The unemployed could not be ignored, and the question of finding suitable occupation for them was one which must, sooner or later, be faced. In dealing with it, however, care must be taken—and he agreed with the hon. Member for the West Derby Division in this respect—to find work for the unemployed which would not drive the employed out of occupation. The suggestion to put the unemployed to the cultivation of land would be, perhaps more than any other proposal, open to the objection he had named. Of course, if they could find a considerable tract of land not at present under cultivation and put the unemployed on it, by such a policy no one would be thrown out of work and the occupation would be infinitely preferable to that of the stone-yard. Possibly, the solution of the question might be found in this direction. There were several objections to putting the unemployed into the stone-yard. In the first place, stone-breaking was skilled labour, and to put the unemployed upon it was to interfere with the skilled labourer. Investigation made into the subject in Birmingham had disclosed the fact that there was a certain way of striking the stone—a certain face on which it was desirable to strike it—in order to produce the best material for road-making. Moreover, the trades of many of the unemployed were delicate, such as the manufacture of jewellery. He knew a jeweller who, when unemployed, was put to stone-breaking, and the result was that on obtaining work again it was fully a fortnight before he had the proper use of his fingers. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean had told them that the unemployed largely consisted of persons who were aged.
§ SIR C. W. DILKEsaid, he had made that statement in reference to the people who went before the Guardians, not with, reference to the unemployed.
MR. POWELL WILLIAMSsaid, he had misunderstood the right hon. Baronet. On another point, they were informed the other day that the Local and County Authorities were liable to make good damage done through riots, such as they had had experience of during the past few weeks.
§ MR. H. H. FOWLERI have nothing to do with that.
MR. POWELL WILLIAMSBut he would have to do with rioting on the part of the unemployed, who might require assistance from the Local Government Board.
§ MR. H. H. FOWLERNo.
§ MR. FORWOOD (Lancashire, Ormskirk)said, he was sure it was most satisfactory to hear the statement of the hon. Baronet the Member for Manchester on the subject of the cholera epidemic—to the effect that it was not likely to spread. He (Mr. Forwood) wished to say one word oil behalf of the trading community of the country—especially as to the shipping trade. There had been a good deal of exaggeration, particularly in the newspapers, in regard to the epidemic, and he would counsel the President of the Local Government Board to guard against that exaggeration. Foreign Governments were very apt to take alarm at the slightest appearance of disease, and to put quarantine on British vessels, thus stopping the trade of this country. They had already had some experience of this, and if a scare such as got abroad last year occurred again it would be a very serious matter for the shipping trade and for the commerce of the country.
§ MR. TOMLINSONsaid, that with reference to the point raised by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean in reference to the appointment of auditors, he considered it necessary that, in addition to a knowledge of accountancy, these officials should have a sufficient acquaintance with legal principles, and with the Acts that regulated the powers of the authorities to enable them to deal satisfactorily with the subject of surcharges. Many Local Authorities throughout the country were 1034 dissatisfied with the decisions of the auditors. On another point, he thought the Local Government Board should do something in the way of setting up a standard of requirement in regard to local sanitary engineering. The public should not be left at the mercy of local engineers who liked to carry out theories of their own.
§ MR. MACDONA (Southwark, Rotherhithe)said, he had several times put questions to the Local Government Board on a question on which he felt warmly. He was of opinion that infectious diseases were brought to this country in old rags; and in view of the spread of the cholera epidemic, he thought that something should be done to induce the Government to re-impose the prohibition against the introduction of these rags. He admitted that up to the present time the Local Government Board had done everything in their power to stop the cholera, and he knew that doctors differed as to whether or not infectious diseases were brought into the country by means of old rags. He, however, was of opinion that they were, and he therefore took this opportunity of making a further appeal to the Government on the question.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES—[Cries of "Divide!"]—said, he desired to move a reduction in the salary of the President of the Local Government Board, not as a personal matter, but in order to call attention to the Board itself. [Cries of "Divide!" and "Agreed!"] He considered the Local Government Board a Board of interference with those who carried on local government. He would not go through the whole gamut of the delinquencies of the Board, but when he had succeeded in getting an adequate amount of silence in the House he would give three illustrations. In the first place—[Cries of "Agreed!"]—he objected to the Board imposing auditors on localities when those localities were engaged merely in managing their own property and spending their own money. Now, why was this? Would hon. Gentlemen like to have auditors sent down to them to manage their private accounts? Certainly not. The fact that Local Government Board inquiries as to the 1035 propriety of allowing Local Authorities to spend their own money had increased, instead of giving him that pleasure which the Government expected it would inspire in hon. Members, raised within him rather a feeling of shame to think that the Local Authorities should be thus interfered with in their domestic concerns. His second point was this—he did not believe very much in doctors, nor in the cholera. He was very much of opinion that whenever an easterly wind blew for a considerable time various mischiefs were blown to us, including revolutionary Radical ideas and the germs of various diseases. If these things were cured it would not be by doctors, but by a breath of westerly wind, which would blow them back again. [Cries of "Divide!" "Agreed!" and interruption.] He protested against the policy of interfering with the Local Authorities during the present cholera scare, and leaving those Local Authorities to pay all the expenses of the precautions the Local Government Board imposed on them. His third point was in regard to the establishment for vaccination. The President of the Local Government Board kept up a vaccination establishment with a doctor or two and a calf or two at a large and increasing expenditure. The expenses if this Department seemed to increase in proportion as vaccination decreased. It was known that the Vaccination Acts were in the agonies of death, the Royal Commission having recommended that the cumulative penalty should no longer be imposed. The moment, therefore, bad arrived when the right lion. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board might re-consider his calves.
§ MR. H. H. FOWLERThe right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge raised the question of the administration of the Poor Law as far as it relates not to existing paupers, but to the unemployed. He put to me questions as to the powers of the Local Government Board and the course I intended to pursue. I, this afternoon, answered a question addressed to me on that subject, and I would just remind the House of what my answer was—and that will be my reply to the 1036 right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, and also to my right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean and the hon. Member for Birmingham. Few greater curses ever afflicted this country than the old Poor Law, and the reform of the Poor Law in 1834 was one of the greatest social reforms of this century. The old Act of Elizabeth empowered the Guardians and Overseers to put persons not able to get an honest livelihood—that is to say, destitute persons—to labour, and it also empowered them to find funds and raw material for that purpose. That was passed 300 years ago. In the reign of George III., about the beginning of this century, an Act was passed empowering Churchwardens and Overseers to acquire land to the amount of 50 acres in a parish, and to set indigent persons to work upon it. And the Act also empowered the Justices to commit to the House of Correction any of these persons who refused to work. No doubt it was the theory—whether correct or not—that these measures were repealed when the present Poor Law system was introduced, but the Law Officers of the Crown have advised me that, although obsolete in practice, they are still on the Statute Book and that action can be taken under them. Whether, however, this practically obsolete legislation, which would effect so great a change in our present system, should be revived I do not feel myself authorised on my own Ministerial authority to decide. The question must come before the Cabinet, and it will be for the Cabinet to consider whether it should apply to the Legislature for sanction to put into force powers which have not been exercised for many generations. That is my answer to those who ask what course we intend to pursue. I, of course, sympathise with all that has been said as to this difficult problem of the unemployed. I agree with the hon. Member for Birmingham that the question is one that statesmen of both Parties will have to face. For my own part, I have never claimed for the Local Government Board infallibility or unalterability. I have already recognised the importance of the subject by recommending the appointment of a Royal Commission to make inquiries as to the aged poor, and I think that it will probably be 1037 desirable to re-elect the same Commission or to appoint another to make investigations in regard to other branches of the Poor Law. With respect to the qualifications of auditors, I agree that to be a good auditor a man must be a competent accountant, acquainted with the law relating to the duties which he has to fulfil. The auditors of the Board, in my opinion, discharge their duties with wonderful ability and great impartiality. The number of appeals from them has this year been singularly few, and their decisions have but rarely been overruled. As to the qualification of these gentlemen, my desire is, and has been, that the persons appointed as auditors shall have been trained to the business. There is no part of my duty more distasteful to me than the exercise of patronage. I wish I had none to exercise. I cannot make a pledge, however, as to what I shall do in the event of vacancies arising in the offices of auditors and inspectors, for each case will have to be judged on its own merits. I have had only one auditor to appoint since I have been in Office, but in that case, I may say, I confined my area of selection to those who had served under auditors. The gentleman I appointed had been in the work of public audit since he Was 16 or 17 years of age. I have to thank the hon. Gentleman opposite for expressing confidence in the Local Government Board. He expressed a desire that the Board should be given larger powers and more money to spend. Of course, I should be glad to have more money to spend—every Department desires that; and I should like to have it to spend on scientific inquiries, especially as to the difference between English cholera and Asiatic cholera, a matter in regard to which I have been in communication with Dr. Thorne. But it is due to the Treasury to say that every application for additional help which I have made to that Department this year has been readily assented to. The increase in the expenditure of the Board is some £5,000, and £4,000 of that amount was for the services of additional Medical Inspectors. They have granted me all I asked for. I asked for two permanent and four temporary Medical Inspectors, as it was 1038 the opinion of Dr. Thorne Thorne that, with that addition to his staff, he would be able to grapple with all emergencies. The Treasury have granted me that aid, and, in consideration of the large number of local inquiries, they have assented to the permanent employment of two of the three Engineering Inspectors who had been temporarily engaged. I agree with my hon. Friend as to the danger of this cholera scare. We live in a very sensational age, and I am sorry to say the Press is very fond of sensational news, and there is a tendency to exaggerate the state of things. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Forwood) says the Local Government Board should be careful to avoid any exaggeration in the reports emanating from it. We have regarded it as important to state to the public the true facts of the case, neither extenuating nor exaggerating them. As far as our general proceedings are concerned, I do not think that more can be done than is being done. We have a most competent medical staff, presided over by one of the most distinguished men in the Medical Profession, Dr. Thorne Thorne, and I have the great advantage of having as Parliamentary Secretary an eminent physician of great experience. Everything is being done that can be done. I am bound to say that we are having the strongest support from Local Authorities, who are doing their duty to the utmost in this emergency. The only other question that has been raised is as to the importation of rags. I quite agree that if we were satisfied that raga were a means of importation of disease, it would be necessary to take very stringent precautions. But at the recent Conference at Dresden the opinion expressed by the scientists of Europe, and the result of the practical experience of Europe, was that there was no case known of cholera being communicated by rags imported under the circumstances in which we allow rags to be imported. I stated to the House the other afternoon that the importation of all rags is now prohibited except rags compressed by hydraulic force, transported in bales surrounded with iron bands and containing marks showing their origin and accepted by the authorities of the country of destination. I am informed by my advisers that some of the rags that are coming in now are rags 1039 that were collected three or four years ago, and that if I want to prohibit the rags of 1893 from coming into England, the prohibition will have to be in force somewhere about the year 1896 or 1897. I may state in passing that that very eminent scientist, Dr. Koch, was of the same opinion as the other leading authorities present at the Conference at Dresden—namely, that in no case had cholera been traced to rags in the form I have mentioned. Having received that evidence, and the Conference having on behalf of all the Great Powers of Europe, including Great Britain, signed the Convention specifying under what conditions rags should be imported into the different countries, I do not think we should be justified in prohibiting the importation, there being no evidence of the public health being in danger. The only other speech addressed to the House was that of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gibson Bowles), who has been through what he called the gamut of wickedness of the Local Government Board. Well, Sir, I am responsible for that wickedness, and must plead guilty to it. I can answer his question as to auditors. It is in accordance with the Statute, and it is very much to the interest of the public, that there should be public auditors appointed to look after the ratepayers' money. I believe the tendency of public Opinion is to extend the powers of Local Authorities to borrow money; and I am strongly of opinion that as the accounts of County Councils and Poor Law Guardians are audited, the accounts of Municipal Authorities ought also to be audited. That is, however, a question of legislation, and not of administration. I do not think I need go into the question of vaccination; but my hon. Friend (Sir W. Foster) will be able to answer any questions to which a reply may be needed. We are still waiting for the Report of the Royal Commission. No one is more anxious than I am to have that Report. I think the country is very impatient for it, and many of our operations are seriously interfered with by the fact that we do not know what the Report will be. I hope we shall receive it in the course of a very few weeks. I have to thank hon. Members who have spoken for the way in which they have referred to the Local 1040 Government Board, and I can assure the Committee that in grappling with emergencies we shall feel strengthened by knowing that we have the confidence of Parliament. We shall not hesitate to take any steps that may be necessary, and I am sure this House will not hesitate to give the Local Government Board any additional powers that may be necessary.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ 11. £30,000, to complete the sum for Mercantile Marine Fund (Grant in Aid).
MR. GIBSON BOWLESremarked that the sum of £50,000 was made up of an ordinary Vote in aid of £40,000, and of an extra Vote this year of £10,000, given for the specific purpose of effecting communication between lighthouses and lightships and the shore. He submitted that, whatever might be the case as regarded the £40,000, the demand for the £10,000 could hardly be defended, inasmuch as the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella) was already possessed of a. fund that was sufficient for establishing the communications in question. The Mercantile Marine Fund was levied from light dues on ships to the extent of £520,000, and there was, in addition, £5,000 for the unpaid wages and the effects of dead sailors. Out of the £525,000 there was allocated to lightships and to matters connected with the Sea Service generally a sum of £400,000, leaving a balance of £125,000. It was proposed to allocate this money for other purposes, including £94,000 for the Mercantile Marine Offices. The Mercantile Marine Offices were always supposed to pay their own fees, but had not succeeded in doing so, and consequently the amount the right hon. Gentleman had in his hands, derived every penny of it from ships and sailors, was applied to purposes not germane to those for which it was intended. Under the circumstances, he thought the £10,000 should not be asked for. It seemed to him that the Mercantile Marine Fund might very easily be increased. Why should Her Majesty's ships and yachts be exempted from light dues, which were in the same category as rates, 1041 being payments for services rendered? Were this exemption removed a large accession of income would be secured for the Mercantile Marine Fund. The contributions made towards the provision of lifeboats, rocket apparatus, and so forth, should not, in his opinion, be charged to that Fund, but should come out of the national taxation. He did not at all deny that life-saving and the collection of statistics with regard to loss of life at sea were proper purposes on which to spend national funds, but he denied that they should be paid for by a special class of property. He was sorry not to see the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Goschen) in his place, because seven years ago his right hon. Friend absolutely promised that the subject should be carefully examined, and said it was evident that the finances of the Fund were in a most unsatisfactory condition. So far as he (Mr. Gibson Bowles) could ascertain, no change whatever had been made in the general treatment of the Fund. It was rather hard that the Committee should be asked for the £40,000, inasmuch as the Fund had £125,000 to spare, and still harder that they should be asked for the £10,000 for the purpose of a particular service with regard to particular lightships or lighthouses.
§ MR. LODER (Brighton)entirely disagreed with the views of his hon. Friend who had just sat down with reference to the extra grant in aid. He only wished it had been £20,000 instead of £10,000. He regretted that the Government had not seen their way to carrying out more fully the recommendations of the Royal Commission who made a tour of the lighthouses last year, more especially as their Report was of a very moderate character. The total cost of establishing communications with the lighthouses and lightships recommended would be less than £30,000, and he was sorry to say that only about a third of that sum had at present been expended. The Royal Commission specially recommended that two lightships should be connected with the coast at the time that the Gunfleet Lighthouse was dealt with, but this recommendation had not been carried out. The Commission recommended that certain lighthouses should have their cables laid 1042 at the same time as the cable was laid to Lundy. That had not been done, and the result was that the expense of the work would be increased. He was sorry also that the Fastnet Lighthouse, one of the most important on our coasts, had not yet been connected with the shore.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. MUNDELLA,) Sheffield, BrightsideI think the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken fully appreciates the reason why we ask for this extra Vote of £10,000. There was no Fund to which this Supplementary Vote could be so properly applied as the Mercantile Marine Fund, because that Fund supplies the money for the whole of the lighthouses and lightships on the coast of the United Kingdom. It was distinctly understood, when the Royal Commission was appointed, that any expenditure that was involved should not come out of the Mercantile Marine Fund.
§ MR. MUNDELLANo; it does not. As to the remarks of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Loder), I can assure him that we are making as much progress as can be reasonably expected. The work cannot be carried out safely without being done tentatively. A great deal of work has already been done; certain lighthouses have already been connected with the shore, and we are now undertaking these three vessels and two lighthouses. I hope we shall be able to satisfy hon. Gentlemen that we are making as much progress as can reasonably be anticipated. There is no intention to come annually to the Treasury, or to increase the sum beyond the £40,000, except so far as it is necessary to complete works of real necessity, and for that purpose we must come to the Treasury on the distinct understanding that the Treasury shall provide the funds. I hope we shall now be allowed to take the Vote.
§ MR. A. C. MORTONwas told by people who understood this matter—namely, Merchant Captains—that the French Government managed this service much better than it was managed 1043 in this country, and at much less cost, the reason being that it was in the hands of the Government. Trinity House was an anomaly, and ought to be abolished, and the whole matter placed under responsible Government authority. He hoped that early next Session they would have an opportunity of discussing this matter at a reasonable hour, and when they could divide upon it.
§ Vote agreed to.
§
12. Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £5,812, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1894, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Establishment under the Public Works Loan Commissioners.
§ Mr. T. W. Russellmoved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again;" but the Chairman, being of opinion that the Motion was an abuse of the Rules of the House, declined to propose the Question thereupon to the Committee.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ 13. £30,659, to complete the sum for the Registrar General's Office, England.—Agreed to.
§ 14. £280,232, to complete the sum for Stationery and Printing.
§ MR. M. AUSTIN (Limerick, W.)said, that in directing the attention of the Committee to the question of Government printing in Ireland, he had hoped from the discussion that took place a couple of weeks ago that some practical good would result. At that late hour it was not his intention to detain the Committee, especially as it would be repeating an old story of the violation of all Trades Union principles by long hours and low wages. In connection with the Queen's printers in Ireland, Messrs. Thom, his chief complaint was the large number of boys employed there and brought up to the printing trade in that establishment. While his mind was not narrowed by any Conservative principles in this matter, he felt, as a practical workman, that no more pernicious system as affecting our industrial working class could exist; and when he thought of the Resolution that was passed 1044 by the House of Commons, which it was hoped would cope with such an evil, and the failure of that Resolution to be fairly considered, he was entitled to some reply from the Secretary to the Treasury. Another branch of the printing department was entrusted to a house (Messrs. Browne and Nolan) which confined its operations to ignoring the legitimate printers of Dublin, which house enjoined longer hours upon its employés and paid lower wages than other establishments. The Government, in its parental capacity in looking after the social well-being of the people, oftentimes neglected this important duty, and hence the strong agitation which had arisen during the past 12 months for the carrying out of that great principle. Then there was the important fact of the Government supporting, he might say solely, a paper in the City of Dublin, The General Advertiser, which was brought out under conditions that brought home to his mind some of the most important evidence revealed under the Sweating Commission. In bringing these matters before the Committee he was actuated by no spirit of hostility, but when he remembered the conditions of life under which working men had often to earn a living he would be unworthy of his position if on every opportunity afforded him he did not ventilate their grievances. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury for some declaration on this matter, so that the printers of Dublin might have their grievances attended to in the same prompt manner as was done in the case of the complaints made by the hon. Member for the Ince Division (Mr. Woods) on behalf of the printers of M'Corquodale and Co.
§ SIR J. T. HIBBERT, in reply, explained that part of the work referred to by the hon. Member was under the control of the Treasury, and part under the control of the Irish Office. He could only speak so far as the Treasury was concerned, but he could assure the hon. Member that they intended to apply the same rule in Ireland as in England with respect to the matter, and that if he found a violation of the conditions it would be his duty to intimate to the firms that had been referred to that their contracts would not be renewed. This 1045 whole question would receive every attention.
§ SIR R. TEMPLEdesired to know what was being done about the Report of the Committee which sat upon the subject of reporting the Parliamentary Debates? He believed some action had been taken, and he hoped, if that action could not be reported to the House before the Adjournment, they might understand what had been done when they met again in November. He would venture to impress upon the Secretary to the Treasury that this Hansard record was of great importance in a Parliamentary and historic sense, and proper means ought to be taken to insure its accuracy. That could only be done if Members who made speeches had sufficient facilities for correcting the proofs. No doubt it was desirable that the speeches should be reported in brief—that was to say, that the report should be in some degree abbreviated and summarised. But if that were done the report should be written in the third person. He earnestly hoped there might be no repetition of the absurd process which took place last Session and the Session before—namely, of the speeches being abbreviated by one-third or one-fourth, and then the report written in the first person. All literary men would assure the right hon. Gentleman that such a process could only end in absurdity, and he, therefore, trusted there would be no repetition of it. He desired to take that opportunity of expressing his sense of the great improvement which had been made this Session over any previous Session in his experience in the important work of Parliamentary reporting. The efficiency, zeal, accuracy, and competency shown by the present staff in reporting the Debates was worthy of the highest commendation; and, as one having had some experience of the work, he thought it his duty to bear public testimony to the efficiency of the present reports.
§ SIR J. T. HIBBERTI can assure my hon. Friend that I entirely endorse the views he has expressed. Having sat with him for a considerable time on the Committee which considered this question, I can assure him I have the greatest interest in the recommendations of the Committee being carried out. I am not in a position 1046 to-day to say how the recommendations will be carried out. They are under the consideration of the Treasury at the present moment, and I hope, when we meet again in the Autumn Session, I shall be able to state what is proposed to be done in carrying out the recommendations of the Committee. I am very glad to hear my hon. Friend say that he considers the present reporting very much better than it has been in past years. I think myself, however, that still further improvements might be made, and I hope such improvements will be carried out in future years.
§ SIR R. TEMPLEdesired to say that the right hon. Gentleman had made a mistake in thinking he (Sir R. Temple) was a Member of the Committee on Parliamentary Reporting. He was not on that Committee, and he spoke quite impartially on the subject.
§ MR. TOMLINSONremarked that there was a small item of £100 for the distribution of Parliamentary Papers. He should like to know on what principle this distribution took place, and whether, the sum being small, a selection was made of the Papers to be distributed?
§ SIR J. T. HIBBERTsaid, this money was quite sufficient for the purposes for which it was required. It had now been granted for several years, and the whole amount had never been expended in one year. Greater demands might be made for these Parliamentary Papers, and a larger amount than that formerly spent was considered necessary; but, so far, the application for Parliamentary Papers by Free Libraries had not been sufficient as to cause the expenditure of the whole of the money voted by Parliament.
§ MR. TOMLINSONasked whether any means had been taken for acquainting managers of Free Libraries with the kind of Papers in existence which might be suitable for them? because they might not apply for Papers, not knowing what they contained.
§ SIR J. T. HIBBERTthought the managers of the Libraries were quite capable of judging of their own requirements in this matter.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESasked whether the Controller of the Stationery 1047 Office was the registered proprietor of the paper called The Labour Gazette? If so, how was it they had no account relating to that paper under this Vote?
§ MR. MUNDELLApointed out that the subject had been discussed upon the Board of Trade Vote, and the money passed. They voted this sum the other night.
THE CHAIRMANIt does not arise on the Vote. The hon. Member cannot put himself in Order by moving the reduction for this purpose.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ 15. £13,129, to complete the sum for Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, &c. Office.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon, &c.)said, the Member for Merthyr (Mr. Pritchard Morgan) had a Motion down for a reduction of this Vote, the hon. Member being particularly anxious to raise certain questions upon it. Would the Chancellor of the Exchequer consent to postpone the Vote until to-morrow?
§ SIR W. HARCOURTreplied, that it would not be convenient to postpone the Vote, but the Report stage should be taken to-morrow in time to enable reasonable discussion to take place. When the Report came on, he thought he would be able to make a statement which would be satisfactory to the hon. Member for Merthyr. He could not allow this Vote to pass without asking leave of the Committee to express his deep sorrow, which he was sure would be shared by everybody who knew him, at the death of Mr. Culley, the Chief of the Woods and Forests Department. The Public Service had sustained a great 1048 loss by Mr. Culley's death, he being a gentleman to whom the Public Service owed a great deal.
§ MR. S. T. EVANS (Glamorgan, Mid.)said, that as it was not expected that this particular Vote would be reached at this hour, he thought they might fairly ask that the Committee should now report Progress.
§ SIR W. HARCOURThoped the Motion to report Progress would not be persisted in. If the Member for Merthyr Tydvil was not satisfied with the statement that would be made, he would have an opportunity of stating his reasons on the Report stage. He desired to state what course the Government proposed to take in regard to Supply. They would finish the other English Votes of this Class, of which there were two which were not of serious importance, and would not lead to long Debate. They would take the Scotch Votes to-morrow and certain other remaining Votes.
§ MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked whether the Report of the Vote would be taken at such an hour as to enable them to discuss the administration of this Department?
§ SIR W. HARCOURTSo I understand.
§ MR. A. O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)said, he desired some explanation as to a letter he had received from the Office of the Commissioner for Woods and Forests. Some time ago he moved for a Return with regard to quit-rents in Ireland, which was a Return of much interest, but one that possibly might involve a certain amount of trouble and inconvenience to the Department. Having obtained the Return, a few days after-wards he received a letter notifying him that he was in arrear with the payment of a sum of 5s. in respect of quit-rents on certain property in Roscommon, and threatening him with all sorts of pains and penalties if he did not at once pay that sum, and warning him that a distraint would be levied against his goods and chattels if he omitted to make the payment. As he did not happen to possess any property in Roscommon, subject to quit-rent or otherwise, he was a little surprised by that communication. He had not the least objection to the Com- 1049 missioners distraining on his goods and chattels in Roscommon, but it did appear to him that the officials of the Department having been put to a certain amount of trouble, and finding a name similar to his own on their list, at once assumed there was an opportunity of visiting him with punishment, because he had moved for the Return. He did not know whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir J. T. Hibbert) could give any explanation of the matter, but he desired to convey to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests that he should regard with perfect equanimity any action they might take in regard to quit-rents in Roscommon.
§ SIR C. W. DILKEasked if the Treasury would be able, in future years, to induce the Office of Woods and Forests to give fuller accounts than they had done in the past? If the right hon. Gentleman could induce the Office to give more items and details, together with the names of tenants of sporting leases, it would be an advantage?
§ SIR J. T. HIBBERTsaid, he had been in communication with his right hon. Friend (Sir C. Dilke) on the subject of the Report. As to the point raised by the hon. Member opposite, he was rather sorry that he had not mentioned this matter to him, so that he could have made inquiries into it. Not knowing anything about it, he was unable at present to give the hon. Gentleman any information; but he would make inquiries as to it, and would give him the explanation he desired.
§ SIR R. TEMPLEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the Report stage of this Vote at an earlier hour than half-past 5 o'clock, otherwise Members would be kept in the House until perhaps 7 o'clock, and compelled to break engagements they had made. He asked the Government to show a little consideration towards private Members.
§ SIR W. HARCOURTshould be very glad to meet the hon. Baronet if it were possible but he was afraid that, under the circumstances, a great many of them had to break engagements which they had made. They were not bound to take the Report of Supply by any particular 1050 hour, but if it was taken at half-past 5 he hoped there would be plenty of time for the discussion of any subject which could properly be taken on that Report. He was afraid some inconvenience might be sustained by hon. Members, but he had endeavoured to collect the feelings and wishes of gentlemen on the other side of the House as well as on this, and he had come to the conclusion that the most convenient course for all would be to finish the English Votes of this Class to-night; to take Scotch Votes and such other Votes as might be taken up till half-past 5 on Wednesday, and then take the Report of Supply, which would leave a sufficiently elastic margin for any necessary discussion.
§ MR. A. C. MORTONdid not want to discuss this Vote now, but he was aware that enormous reforms were wanted in the administration of this Office. Indeed, he was not sure whether the proper thing would not be to get a good big broom and sweep out the present administration altogether.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ 16. £30,287, to complete the sum for Works and Public Buildings Office.—Agreed to.
§ 17. £16,000, to complete the sum for Secret Service.
MR. POWELL WILLIAMSasked whether the money unspent at the end of the year was returned to the Treasury?
§ SIR W. HARCOURTYes, Sir.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid, he noticed that the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs took £300 a year for managing the Secret Service Fund. Ho should like an assurance from the Secretary to the Treasury that he would look into this matter, for it needed looking into.
§ SIR J. T. HIBBERTI have no acquaintance, in any way, with this Fund.
§ MR. A.C. MORTONsaid, that when the Radicals were in Opposition they always took a Division against the Vote. He would have been glad to take a Division against it now, were it not for the lateness of the Session and the pressure of Public Business, but he protested against it, as 1051 he had always done every year since he entered Parliament.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.