COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 28 November 1893)

§ SIR M. HICKS-BEACH (Bristol, W.)

I hope we may have some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman upon this point, because I confess I think the House ought always to look with great suspicion upon these remissions on loans for the construction of railways in Ireland. It has been a course frequently adopted, practically under compulsion, because it has been impossible to obtain repayments of the loans. The circumstances in this case, if I am rightly informed, tire rather peculiar. This was a loan made in 1867 to the Athenry and Ennis Railway, and only this year, if my information is correct, the Athenry and Ennis Railway was purchased by the Waterford and Limerick Railway for the sum of £180,000. Why' we are to make a remission on the loan made to the Athenry and Ennis Railway in the face of that purchase I really do not know. 2002 At any rate, I think the matter requires some explanation from Her Majesty's Government—first, as to whether that purchase actually took place; whether the money has been paid; and, if so, why we have not got the proper share of it due to the Treasury of this country? It appears to me that there arc certain persons connected with these matters, both in England and Ireland, who are very ready to take advantage of the Treasury whenever they come to have made a purchase, and calmly pocket the remission which the Committee is asked to sanction now.

§ * THE SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Sir J. T. HIBBERT,) Oldham

I gave a very full explanation of the objects of this proposal last night, and I need not enter very fully into the subject now. I must say that I think if the right hon. Gentleman knew as much of the matter as I do, he would not be so disposed to blame what is proposed to be done by the present Government. We are, to a considerable extent, in this proposal carrying out the agreement which was made by the late Government. Therefore, if any blame is to be attached to the proposal, the blame is just as much to be given to the late Government as it is to the present Government. The facts of the case are these: This loan was made to the Athenry and Ennis Company, as the right hon. Gentleman states, in 1867, by the Public Works Loan Commissioners of England. At, that time loans for railways were always made at 5 per cent, interest. But 10½ years ago—that is, in the year 1883— the rate of interest for railway loans made by the Irish Board of Works was, by a Treasury Minute, altered from 5 to 4 per cent. The Athenry and Ennis Railway has been purchased by the Waterford and Limerick Railway, and an arrangement was made some years ago by the late Government that when the sale of the railway was completed the Government would be prepared to forego a portion of the interest, which would have had an effect equivalent to reducing the interest over the whole term to about 4¾ per cent. As all the other railways in Ireland to which loans are made only pay 4 per cent, interest, the Treasury and the Public Works 2003 Loan Commissioners have thought it right, and fair, and proper in this case that there should be some reduction. There was a fair claim for asking that a reduction should be made to 4 per. cent., the rate paid by other railways in Ireland, therefore, the Treasury agreed, when the transfer took place, that they would be prepared to reduce the rate from 5 to 4 per cent. I ought to say this: Much has been said about loans to Local Authorities and to railways in Ireland, but this has been one of the few cases where there has been no loss to the British Exchequer. The principal will be paid; there will be no loss; therefore, it is thought that we are but dealing justly and fairly in making this proposal, and I feel confident the Government will have the support of the House.