HC Deb 18 May 1893 vol 12 cc1265-6
MR. HANBURY

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any, and, if any, what public Departments are not subject to the Orders in Council requiring attendance books to be kept for the purpose of registering the arrival and departure of their clerks of both divisions of the Civil Service; and whether all the Departments have yet formulated their normal establishment; and, if so, whether a statement will be laid upon the Table before the Votes for the various Departments are taken showing the proposed establishment in each case?

SIR J. HIBBERT

With regard to the Legal Departments, the hon. Member is aware that they have been held to be outside the Order in Council of l5th August, 1890. I cannot, therefore, at present answer either paragraph of the question, so far as relates to matters under the jurisdiction of judicial authorities not responsible to Parliament. Subject to this qualification, I am not aware of any public Departments except, perhaps, the Houses of Lords and Commons that are exempt from the requirements of the Orders in Council. All Departments except the Legal Departments, the Houses of Lords and Com- mons, the Foreign Office, the Admiralty, and the Education Department, have submitted schemes for their future normal establishment; but as, owing to reductions which have been made in the Upper Division and other causes, the normal establishment cannot be reached for some time, and the increase or diminution that may in the meantime take place in the work to be done by the Departments may necessitate changes in that normal establishment as now estimated, I think it would not be desirable to lay upon the Table particulars which must, from the nature of the case, be more or less theoretical.

MR. HANBURY

Is it the intention of the Treasury not to give this information for two or three years?

SIR. J. HIBBERT

Oh no! I thought the hon. Member wanted it laid on the Table for the purposes of to-night's discussion.

MR. HANBURY

And what is the objection to that?

SIR J. HIBBERT

It could not be done in time.