THE PAMIRS.

HC Deb 02 May 1893 vol 11 cc1775-90

*MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)

rose to call attention to the persistent withholding by Her Majesty's Government from the House of the Papers containing the official information and correspondence respecting the armed occupation by Russia of territories in the Pamirs in the neighbourhood of the northern frontiers of India, and to move— That it is desirable that full information of the correspondence and negotiations, whether with the Russian Government, the Chinese Government, or the Afghan Government, respecting the armed occupation by Russian forces in July last of the Pamirs, should be laid before this House before any binding agreement or final settlement in regard to the matter is entered into by Her Majesty's Government. He said many of them had become aware that history was now being made in these regions which would have an immediate effect on India, and which must ultimately have an influence on the final history of this country itself. It was in no spirit of hostility to the Govern- ment, and still less to the Foreign Secretary, that he rose to call attention to the matter. In his opinion, the Foreign Secretary could hardly be matched in the present circumstances by any other statesman they could appoint to that post, and he did not believe, at any rate, that he could be surpassed. His belief was that the noble Lord would be rather pleased than otherwise to have his elbow jogged in pursuing that course of policy which he believed would be identical with that which he (Mr. Bowles) would also pursue. It was not against the Secretary for Foreign Affairs that he should make any complaint; but it was against the system which delivered the Foreign Secretary bound hand and foot to the Prime Minister and to the Permanent Clerk. To the Prime Minister to be utilised and guided in the interests of Party exigencies, and to the Permanent Clerk to be controlled and guided according to the requirements and spirit of a bureaucracy which was not always animated by the supremest wisdom. The Pamir region was a large table-laud lying on the northern side of our Indian Frontier; it was a table-land measuring some 300 miles from north to south, broadly speaking—for it was difficult to find out what were its exact boundaries — and some 200 miles from east to west. It lay at an altitude of from 10,000 to 15,000 feet. It had been likened to a square mile of Sirius, and spoken of as both sterile and unproductive. That was a libel on the Pamirs. It was, as he should proceed to show, one of the most interesting countries in every respect on the face of the globe. Indeed, it was called, as many of them know, the roof of the world. The traditions of the inhabitants assigned to it the honour of having been the original cradle of our race; but the locality of the home of our first parents had, however, been as much a matter of doubt and dispute as the birthplace of Homer or the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury. The history of this Pamir region was altogether interesting, and at a given moment he should call the attention of the House to it; for the present he would deal with the political aspect of this region. It lay on the northern frontier of India; the sovereign rights of it had hitherto, undoubtedly, been always considered to belong either to China, by right of the conquest of Kashgar, or to Afghanistan. Across what he would call the middle of the Pamir region there runs from east to west the River Murghab. North of this river Russia could, with some plausibility, claim certain rights by reason of having conquered tribes inhabiting that region; but south of the river the only rights of sovereignty appertained to China and Afghanistan. It was perfectly true that the line of demarcation between these sovereignties had been a matter of dispute—and, indeed, was still a matter of dispute — but we had no right to settle what part of the country belonged to Afghanistan and what part to Russia or China. Just about a year ago a Chinese post was in occupation of Somatash, which was a small town on the west side of the Pamir region—for "pamir" meant "valley." The Pamirs were nothing more nor less than a series of broad valleys closed in by low hills. At Somatash, as he had said, there was found in the spring of last year a Chinese post. The Afghans, prompted, as he believed, from India, tried to annex as much of the Pamirs as they could. The Afghans attacked the Chinese post and drove it out, and at the same time it was alleged (though he did not know with what truth) that other cruelties were inflicted, and that certain of the inhabitants and chief men were sold into slavery. The Chinese, as might be expected, remonstrated with us in consequence of the acts of the Afghans, for whom they hold us properly to be responsible. We entertained their remonstrance, and thereby, as he contended, we admitted, or at any rate give a strong colour to, the Chinese claim to sovereignty over the Pamirs as far west as Somatash. If they had any right of sovereignty at all at Somatash, it must have extended thence to the east, where the Kashgar joined the Pamirs. We entertained the Representatives of the Chinese Government, and negotiations, he believed, wore still going on between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of China with reference to this subject. But, as in April of last year the Chinese were driven out by a superior Afghan force, so in July the Afghans were, in their turn, attacked and driven out of Somatash by a superior Russian force; and, as far as he could see and judge from the Russian Official Gazette, 15 Afghans were killed and the rest were taken prisoners. The Russian force occupied the place, and had continued in occupation of it from that day to this. In addition to that, the Russian occupation had been extended to territories to the south-east and southwest of Somatash. It was inevitable that we should take much interest in the future welfare of India, and we were determined—whatever else we might doubt about—to maintain English authority in India. The Russian Government had extended far from the centre of their operations. It was impossible to overlook the fact that Russia was, on the east, encroaching on China, and, through the southern extremity of her Asiatic Empire, encroaching upon the Pamir territory which belonged either to China or Afghanistan. Now, what was the explanation? There was no doubt as to what the explanation was. It was impossible to have read any extract from a Russian paper dealing with the territorial policy of Russia in Asia without coming to the conclusion —the positive, absolute, undeniable conclusion—that the reason of Russia's approach to the confines of India was, that she might have the power of attacking England in Asia whenever England ceased to be sufficiently complaisant to Russia in Europe. Having come to that conclusion, it naturally must suggest itself to all Members of the House—as it had suggested itself, he ventured to say, to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and to his Under Secretary—that we should in some way endeavour to stem this persistent and indefatigable advance of Russia towards our Indian Frontier. The difficulty in the Pamir ease lay in the fact that the encroachment was upon no territory of ours. It was either upon Afghan or Chinese territory. If we were to resist we could only do so by supporting the rights of China and Afghanistan, and seeing those rights were duly maintained. He was aware it had been often said that the Pamirs were of no importance to us or anybody else— that it was a sterile region where men found it difficult to exist; where troops could not march, and that, therefore, whatever action Russia might take there we might leave the action disregarded inasmuch as the region was unproductive, sterile, and impossible to live in The contention had been made that the sterility of the region supplied us with sufficient protection. He wished once for all, to put an end to any notion of the kind, and to show the House by undoubted testimony that the Pamirs were entitled to a very different character than was given to them by some politicians who wished to evade their responsibility. In the first place, the whole of this Pamir region from north to south was travelled through by Captain Littledale, accompanied by his wife. Mrs. Little-dale found no difficulty whatever in getting what was required, and a successful journey of that kind would hardly be possible in a barren, sterile legion. He would quote a description of the Pamirs given in January, 1891, before the imperial Geographical Society at St. Petersburg, by Captain Grombtchefski, who said— The Pamirs are far from being deserts There are permanent populations living there summer and winter. The nomads of Central Asia, not being at all fastidious and thoroughly accustomed to severe conditions of life in the Pamirs, and having pastures for their cattle, would reconcile themselves to circumstances if the natural growth of population were not continually checked by the predatory raids of neighbouring and semi-independent Khanates. Another traveller, M. Ximènes, who was despatched last year by the Paris Commercial Geographical Society to Central Asia, to study the best routes leading into Thibet by way of Turkestan, had lately returned and delivered a, lectures on the subject of his explorations. He said— This country is by no means so wild and miserable as has been asserted, and without certainly being a terrestrial paradise, it in not wanting in natural beauties and wealth. Its magnificent pasture-lands afford nourishment to herds of superb cattle and excellent mountain horses, and nature here offers many charming aspects, with its clear sky, majestic mountains, mighty glaciers, rapid torrents, azure lakes, and green plains. Mr. Ivan of said of this region— As we advance westwards across the Pamirs, descending, say, from a height of 9,000 ft. on the north and from one of 12,000 ft. on the south, we at once enter the region of forest growth, beginning with the creeper. With this we find the reed, and a little lower the rose, willow, birch, mountain poplar, and the bramble, which here attains the dimensions of a tree, invariably decorated with clematis; the liquorice root, honeysuckle, spurge, and black currant. Side by side with this forest growth we find the cultivation of corn; first barley next wheat. He had read these extracts because he was anxious once for all to get rid of the notion that this region was one which we should consider as being uninhabited, sterile, bleak, and deserted. This region began to be occupied by Russia in July last. The occupation had continued throughout the winter, and this spring they were told by the newspapers the occupation was to be very largely increased. It was a fact that during the winter there had been 1,200 troops in the Pamirs. Two more battalions of Infantry and two batteries of Artillery had been despatched from the north-west to increase the Army of Occupation, and they were told that the advance guard of these reinforcements was to start last mouth. It might be assumed that at this moment large Russian forces were crossing the Pamir steppes. In taking measures to resist this Russian advance towards India, he hoped the Government would not fall into the mistake which bad too often characterised our policy in the past. In 1838, and again in 1878, when resisting similar advances, we quarrelled, not with Russia, but with Afghanistan. What was our duty towards Afghanistan? In 1876 Lord Lytton said— The moment we cease to regard Afghanistan as a friendly and princely allied State, what is there to prevent us from providing for the security of our frontiers by an understanding with Russia, which might have the effect of wiping Afghanistan out of the map altogether? The suggestion contained in that was one that ought never to have entered the mind of a British statesman. As Lord Roberts had again and again pointed out, there was but one safe and sound and statesmanlike way of dealing with Afghanistan. It was by regarding it as the bulwark of India, and dealing with it as an independent State, always respecting the independence of the country, and always being prepared, if necessary, to defend that independence against all comers. It was necessary also that they should pay due regard to the increasing importance of China—the most interesting country in the world, and one which had its political and social system completed centuries before other countries. China was the only country which had yet succeeded, by the recovery from Russia of Kuldja, to use a somewhat vulgar figure, in getting a piece of butter out of the Russian dog's mouth, and China, therefore, was not a country to be despised. What he was afraid of was that the Foreign Secretary would be induced, unless he had a strong protest against it by Russia, to agree to a Delimitation Commission which should settle the boundaries of territories in which we had no authority. If there was to be such a Commission, he hoped it would be one in which would be represented not only England and Russia, but also the equally independent, States of Afghanistan and China. He was inclined, however, to think it would be better to have no Delimitation Commission at all, and to leave the matter to be settled between China and Russia. He could not agree that this was a matter which ought to be left entirely to the Foreign Office, because the Foreign Office had occasionally made strange and startling mistakes, notably in translation. In 1872 Lord Granville wrote in the Despatch embodying the Convention with Russia of 1872–3 and laid down the frontier of Afghanistan in these words— For your Excellency's more complete information I state the territories and boundaries which Her Majesty's Government consider us fully belonging to the Ameer of Cabul, viz.: (1) Badakshan, with its dependent district Wakhan from the Sarikal (Wood's lake) on the East to the junction of the Kokcha river with the Oxus (or Penjah) forming the northern boundary of this Afghan province throughout its entire extent. It was impossible to understand this paragraph, and the reason was that there was a line omitted in it, which should have been there. In this paragraph which assumed to lay down the boundary between Afghanistan and Russia the only essential point, the line of boundary, the line of the Oxus, was omitted. They know that omissions were constantly made in Foreign Office despatches as presented to the House. They had usually to take such information as the Foreign Office gave; but in this instance he complained that they had no information at all. This system amounted, in fact, to a request to the House to continue to rely on secret diplomacy. But it was through relying on secret diplomacy that the first Afghan War arose. He did not see why they should rely on that method any longer. He could understand its advantages to countries that had conspiracies to carry through and that desired to take other men's land; but for them it was not only not required, but was mischievous. He believed it was not only possible but desirable to keep the British people informed of the conduct of their own affairs; for then, and then only, would they be found behind the Foreign Minister when the day of stress came. He hoped the Under Secretary would be disposed to give the House some further information before any absolute and binding engagement was entered into on this subject.

*THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir E. GREY,) Northumberland, Berwick

The hon. Member has complained of the method of presenting Foreign Office despatches. I do not propose to follow him into ancient history. As I have stated in answer to questions, it is sometimes necessary for the Foreign Office to make omissions in despatches. If everything that is received were published it would be necessary for the Foreign Office to receive much less information than it does. I have also slated already that it is not the practice to make alterations in despatches, and it is certainly not the practice in making any omissions to do anything to invalidate the sense of the papers, or to make any omission which would tend to mislead the House either as to the facts of the case or the intentions of the Secretary of State.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

It has been done.

*SIR E. GREY

I do not propose to follow the hon. Member into the past. I am speaking of the present state of the case. I need not follow the hon. Gentleman in his statement as to the natural history and character of the Pamir. He gave us a very flowery description of the country; but I would remind the House that that is a description of the country in summer. The hon. Member did not say what it is like in winter, nor how long the winter lasts. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that as regards the interests of both China and Afghanistan every care will be taken by the Government to give them full attention in any negotiations that may take place. There is not the slightest intention to leave out of sight any claim which these countries may put forward, nor in the least degree to ignore the fact that they have great interest in the question of any frontier on the Pamir. But this country has very great interests in any delimitation of boundary there also. I venture to say at the present stage of the question the House will be unanimous in feeling that, as Russia is the Power that has lately been moving in that part of the world, negotiation with Russia is the proper method of seeking a settlement of any difficulties. At the present moment negotiations with Russia are proceeding. If Papers were to be laid, as the hon. Member asks should he done, at the present time they would undoubtedly tend to interfere with those negotiations.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES

I did not suggest that they should be immediately laid, but before any final settlement was arrived at.

*SIR E. GREY

The question of laying Papers is one about which it is impossible to make any definite promise until negotiations have arrived at a certain stage. According to the Motion on the Paper, the hon. Member asks for information as to the "armed occupation by Russian forces in July last." At the present time, as I have said, negotiations with Russia are proceeding in a satisfactory manner, and nothing would be more calculated to delay the peaceful issue of those negotiations than to furnish the information asked for in his Motion. If we were to publish them it might be regarded as an unfriendly act. The negotiations cover a long period of time, because it is necessary that we should obtain accurate information not only of the geographical, but of the ethnographical circumstances of these regions. If you are going to make hard-and-fast Treaties you must have a perfect knowledge of the details, not only of the geography of the place, but also of the tribes and populations occupying the different districts. Every means will be taken to arrive at a perfect knowledge of these details, and I hope that when we have arrived at that knowledge a binding agreement will result through the joint action of all the parties interested. The House will naturally feel that assurances should be given on one point. While we are arranging the bases for a Commission of Inquiry to take place on the spot, we ought to have some assurance that the Russians will not use the interval for further operations. Russia has, it is true, left a detachment in the country; but the force is very small, falling far short, I think, of the number stated by the hon. Member. It is a mere detachment or post for the winter, and the British Government have been assured that no members of the detachment will go out in parties of more than two or three, and that no active operations will be undertaken. So far as our information goes, the force is certainly not one to be used for any effective purpose, and, as I say, we have received a solemn promise that it will not be so used. We have also been assured in the most explicit manner that during this year, while negotiations are pending, no further expedition or reinforcements will be sent to the Pamirs. I must ask the House to rest content with that assurance, and I can only say that there is every prospect that while there will be no further active operations or advance in the Pamirs, the negotiations, of a perfectly friendly character, will be brought to a, satisfactory conclusion. I must, therefore, ask the House not, at the present time, to press any demands or requests which are in any way likely to endanger the safety of the negotiations. It is the object of the Government to preserve and protect in every way the peaceful and satisfactory character of the negotiations which, we hope, will lead to a solution satisfactory to the interests of this country, of Russia, of China, and of Afghanistan.

MR. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith)

The House will have been very glad to hear the statement made by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. I understand him to say this—that negotiations are in an advanced state of progress for a, Commission, not in the character of a Delimitation Commission, but in the character of a Commission of Inquiry, which would acquire geographical, historical and ethnological knowledge with regard to this very little known region of the Pamirs, and, pending that arrangement, that the Russian Government have given a promise that no further troops will be moved into the Pamirs. If that is the state of affairs, I think that my hon. Friend (Mr. Gibson Bowles) may rest well satisfied with the assurance which he has received and the House also But, at the same time, I think it is well to remind the House what I think the House is already acquainted with—namely, that an assurance was given last year by the Russian Government to this Government that no expedition was contemplated in the Pamirs in that year. Well, I do not know by what means, but there seems to have arisen some misunderstanding, I suppose either on our part when we had received the assurance, or on the part of the Russian Government in giving it. Some misunderstanding, I presume, took place; but, at all events, what happened was this—that a considerable force of Russians did go into the Pamirs, their numbers being estimated at from 300 or 400 to as many as 1,200. We have reason to believe that a certain number of that force remained in the Pamirs during the whole of the summer and part of the winter; but, however that may be, I hope that the Foreign Secretary will on this occasion have satisfied himself fully that the assurance given by the Russian Government is sufficient; and if that be so, then I think it would be undesirable to press Her Majesty's Government, in the present state of negotiations, to produce any Papers upon the matter. I have no doubt that the Foreign Office could produce a considerable number of Papers which would give information relating to past events in the Pamirs which have occurred during the last few years. But this, I do not think, would satisfy either my hon. Friend or the House; they would be ancient history. As to the production of Papers as they arrive, of course I think my hon. Friend must see that it is perfectly impossible to carry on any negotiations if from day to day, or from week to week, or even from mouth to month, Papers as received by the Foreign Office are produced and laid upon the Table of this House. It is the Foreign Office which is negotiating, and with them rests the responsibility of negotiating. It would not be right in any sense that that responsibility should be divided by the constant production of Papers in this House. The House is not in a position to carry on negotiations. Should disputes arise the Foreign Office would say—"We have laid all our materials before you. If there is any cause of complaint the responsibility rests with you, the House of Commons, because at the time you were able to lay your finger upon it you did not call attention to this particular question." These matters are left with Her Majesty's Government, and my hon. Friend knows as well as anybody else that it is impossible to raise questions upon negotiations as they proceed. I would like also to bear out what the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs said was the practice of the Foreign Office with regard to the production of despatches. During the short time I was at the Foreign Office the practice was this—that, of course, certain parts of despatches were omitted in presentation to the House. It would be obviously impossible to lay the whole of every despatch before the House. Whenever that occurred, in the Blue Book the despatch was always headed "Extract," so that the House and the country was informed that the despatch was not the whole despatch as received, but only a part. I can say that, certainly during the time I was at the Foreign Office, on no occasion was any despatch altered in such a way as to in any degree whatever alter the sense of the despatch. I do not say that there were not at times the omission from certain sentences of words which had become unnecessary, such as "and," "therefore," etc., and some other words to make the sense run properly. But in no despatch that I can remember—and I think I can say that was the general practice—in no despatch was the alteration of a substantial character, so as to alter in any degree the meaning of any despatch. Then my hon. Friend drew attention to the very remarkable circumstance of a despatch as it stands in the Blue Book of the 17th October, 1872, in which Lord Granville wrote to Lord Augustus Loftus, defining at that time what Her Majesty's Government considered to be the proper limits to Afghanistan. I believe my hon. Friend is perfectly light in the conclusion which he has drawn with regard to that particular despatch. In the printing of the despatch one line has been dropped out. I do not think it ever came to my knowledge, but it is clear that the mistake arose in the printing; that I think is a very probable explanation. Certainly it is a curious circumstance; but it, is clear upon reading the despatch that one line has dropped out, although, I confess, it does not seem to me to make very much difference to the sense. The grammar is not as good as might have been expected from Lord Granville; hut, on the whole, I think it is perfectly clear what was meant by the despatch even as it stands in the Blue Book at the present time. After the assurance we have had, and the statement which has been made by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, I think the House may rest content and leave the matter as it now stands.

*SIR. R. TEMPLE (Surrey, Kingston)

said, he did not wish to ask for any Papers, and he did not mean to give the slightest trouble to the Government in this case. He heartily joined in the commendations the lion. Member for Lynn Regis (Mr. Gibson Bowles) had bestowed on the Foreign Department of the present Government. There had been remarkable instances lately in Eastern Africa of the admirable character of he foreign policy of the Government; and, with all respect, he might say that, they had had a signal proof of it in the speech of the Prime Minister last night. If further proof were needed it would be found in the excellent reply which had just been given by the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. As he (Sir R. Temple) had known and studied the country of the Pamirs very closely as a high Indian official for many years, he felt that as this subject had been brought forward by the hon. Member for Lynn Regis he could not altogether remain silent. He would not attempt to follow the hon. Member into his geographical disquisitions, nor would he deal with the historical facts touched on; but he would endeavour to give the House some idea of the geographical condition of tills important tract, negotiations as to which he was happy to learn were now pending. What was the country of the Pamirs? The Pamirs consisted of a great central upland tract, the boss of the shield of the Asiatic Continent, so to speak. It was one of the loftiest tableland or plateaux in the world, and had been termed, familiarly, "the roof of the world." It was the "no man's land" of Asia, and in itself it was not a very desirable posses- sion. The question, however, to-day was, by what nations was it surrounded? Might he explain to the House what its surroundings are? This "no man's land "was bounded on the west and northwest by the Russian dominions in Asia, on the north-east and cast by the Chinese Empire, and on the South partly by India or Cashmir and partly by Afghanistan. Hence it followed that this "no man's land" thus situated between four ambitious neighbours—or, if Afghanistan were regarded as British or within the British Protectorate, three ambitious neighbours—would be from time to time enroached upon by each of the three. Russia had begun that process, and now some kind of partition by delimitation was necessary. But before he touched upon the Russian or British interests he would say a word as to the physical geography of the place. This was a very vast tract, of various altitudes and various zones of fertility or of barrenness. It was, as a rule, an uninhabited and comparatively barren tract, as had been already stated by the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, it was subjected to a very long and severe winter. But during the three or four summer months when the snow cleared away it afforded splendid pasturage such as that which was known in Switzerland as a perfect Alp. Of course it was sparsely populated; though it had some fruitful places, as mentioned by the Member for Lynn Regis. But though, as a rule, it was not traversed by formed roads fit for the passage of an army, yet it was quite possible for skilful military leaders to arrange for the passage of their troops through or round some portion of it. So much for the physical character of the country. Now, what were the respective interests of Russia and England in this extraordinary territory. If he might say so without au undue disregard of the susceptibilities of a friendly Power, Russia had no interest whatever in the Pamirs except as a possible passage to Afghanistan, and it might be said that every step which she took in that direction was a step towards India, and was meant to be a menace to England. It was a menace to England through India, or, more indirectly, perhaps, through Afghanistan, and that being the case we were bound to guard against the advance of Russia in that quarter. Russia was gradually approaching bit by bit from the north and north-west, and every step she so took was so much ground made good in her possible advance towards India—and this had relation not to any Asiatic advantage, as the country was not worth taking or keeping, but to possible complications in Europe and other parts of the world. Now, what exactly was the interest of England? This region was bounded on the south and south-east, or rather the eastern half of the southern boundary of the Pamirs adjoined territories belonging to England, and the western half of this southern boundary belonged to Afghanistan. The south-east frontier consisted of a tract of territory belonging to the Maharajah of Cashmir that was the most difficult in the world for the passage of troops, the lowest pass over the mountains being 16,000 ft. above the level of the sea, or higher than the top of any mountain in Europe, while there were one or two of the passes which went up to 17,000 ft. or 18,000 ft. These passes were well known to the military leaders of India, and the well-known officer, Sir Douglas Forsyth, traversed them on his mission to Kashgar. We might be quite sure that no Russian force would ever advance in that particular direction; but, on the other hand, the House must not suppose that there was no danger in that direction, because the appearance of Russian forces descending from those passes from the southern part of the Pamirs would give rise to great alarm in Cashmir. But, as regarded the western half of the southern boundary of the Pamirs, which directly touched Afghanistan, the most danger was there to be apprehended, because the Pamirs were there at their lowest. The most traversible passes wore found in the western parts of the Pamirs, and this country touched on Balkh, the Bactria of the ancients, and reached as far as the Oxus. Then the passes dividing the Oxus Valley from Afghanistan had been traversed by military forces hundreds of times, and Alexander the Great had marched through them. A descent on Cabul in this direction would be easy, and there would be nothing more calculated to alarm and to terrify Afghanistan than the establishment of Russian military posts in the south-western corner of the Pamirs. He must say, therefore, on behalf of the country and the Empire to which he belonged, that he earnestly hoped—nay, he was sure—that in the negotiations that were about to be entered into by such able men as our present Foreign Secretary and his Representative in the House of Commons we should insist that that part of the Pamirs should by strict delimitations be kept out of the Russian sphere of influence, and within that of Afghanistan. With the view to the protection of Afghanistan, and consequently of India, Afghanistan being our bulwark against the advance of Russia, we must insist upon the delimitation of the Pamirs. These, he submitted, were the considerations which should guide us in our negotiations for this delimitation. He desired to say nothing about details. He merely wished to state these general principles, because the people of England ought to understand them, and because it was important that Russians should know that Englishmen did know them, and that Russia should be aware of the fact that her advances were well observed and understood by the British public and by the House of Commons. He earnestly hoped that the delimitation to which he had referred would be speedily carried out. He could not join in the opinion that we ought to leave either China or Afghanistan to negotiate separately with Russia, for that would be leaving the lambs to negotiate with the wolves. Nobody supposed that we should take a single inch of the Pamirs for ourselves; but we were bound to guard the interests of our Allies —China whom we thought we could trust—and Afghanistan. He was afraid that it was too late to prevent Russia taking, at least, a portion of this tract. The House would bear in mind that this question was quite separate from that of the delimitation of the frontier between Afghanistan and the Merv dominions, which had been carried out with some success, but with little regard for the rights of England, and which would result in giving Russia a great advantage if ever war were to break out between the two Empires, which God forbid! Let them all breathe the aspiration that a good Providence might, in the delimitation of the Pamirs, protect the interests of England for the benefit of the hundreds of millions of human beings under her rule.