HC Deb 11 March 1893 vol 9 cc1799-816

Vote for 154,442 of all ranks.

MR. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN

Sir, in moving this Vote, I would ask the indulgence of the Committee while I make a statement, which I hope will not be a very long one, as to the present condition of the Army, and as to the measures which have either been adopted, or are in contemplation regarding it. I have long had, as the House knows, some familiarity with these military affairs. I have often concerned myself in Military Debates in this House during the last 17 years, but so many great changes have been introduced of late years, that I feel almost obliged to ask for that plea of indulgence which the House is accustomed to give to one undertaking novel duties on a novel subject. I will say at once that I have no great changes to lay before the Committee. My wish has been rather to do the best I could with the materials at my disposal than to introduce reforms other than those which appeared to be absolutely necessary. Of late years much has been done. The right hon. Gentleman opposite, my Predecessor, has laboured with assiduity and with enlightened ability; he has been surrounded and assisted by officers of unusual distinction and ability; and his work has not been fruitless. Immense advance has been made within the last two or three years, if not perfection attained, which we can hardly ever hope to attain. In the great questions of Imperial defence, the fortification of our shores, in the protection of our foreign possessions, in the housing of our troops, and in the supply of armaments and munitions of war, both large and small, great progress has been made under the right hon. Gentleman of late years. He has also introduced great changes in the administration of the Army, as to which opinions differ, and as to which, in my view, we are not yet quite able to judge. But as to the Army, its general principles and its organization remain unaltered. The systems introduced more than 20 years ago—short service, localization, and the combination of battalions—have stood the test of time, as is shown by the recent Report of the Wantage Committee, which, while suggesting many changes and improvements, practically approved of those three great systems as being those best adapted to our needs, which are varied beyond the experience of any other Army in the world. We have, in the first place, to garrison India, we have to defend the Colonies, we have to make our own shores safe, and we must be ready for small wars if they arise; and it appears that the present terms of service and the organization answer well in the main for these purposes. What we want in this country, in the terms of service and in our organization especially, is elasticity and adaptability, and I believe we obtain this to the necessary degree by the present arrangement. I am quite aware that theorists object to our organization, and particularly to the terms of service; but, after all, there is nothing so easy as to theorize in these matters. I could easily be a theorist, and could invent an Army which would answer most of our purposes possibly even better and be cheaper than the Army which we have; but we cannot set aside in this country ancient traditions, prepossessions, prejudices, associations, and vested interests, and if these are taken into account I question very much whether any theory, in fact I can say positively that no theory I have ever seen, could, if applied to those circumstances, have obtained the results we have obtained. Every alternative I have ever seen proposed, however ingenious it might be, has upon examination been either more costly or less suitable to our wants. If that is so, what ought we to do in the present position of matters in this country? In my opinion, the best policy of a Minister for War is to give fair play to our system, and, having done that, to leave it alone; distinctly I say to leave it alone—that is, the organisation of the Infantry especially, which is the main matter. I have said it was 20 years since the present system was inaugurated, and I cannot but go back, not only with respect and gratitude, but with some degree of surprise, to that time when almost every great branch of our present system was inaugurated by one man—namely, by Lord Cardwell. In the course of three or four years Lord Cardwell consolidated the administration of the Army at home, abolished purchase, introduced short service and the Reserve, localised the Army, united the control of the Regular Forces and of the Auxiliary Forces, and organised the Infantry. In order to carry those great reforms, he faced immense, honourable but very stubborn, prejudice and a great deal of obloquy, which perhaps still remains in some minds; but I think the catalogue I have named of achievements in Army reform is such as no Army reformer, in this country at all events, has ever produced, or is ever likely to produce again. Many things have fought against the development of that system. There is nothing so pernicious to the Army as perpetual change, perpetual oscillation both of theory and of practice. I say give fair play to our present organisation, and the one thing essential for that purpose seems to be the equalisation of the battalions at home and abroad. The system introduced 20 years ago has never had fair play, because the battalions have never been equalised. If you have some regiments with both battalions abroad, not only have you an immense cost, and a great pressure for drafts which would otherwise be avoided, but you fail to realise what is a very considerable advantage of the system, according to which the battalion going abroad would leave behind all its men who were either too young or too near the end of their service, or on other grounds unfit, and on arriving in India or the Colony would find the men who, having some time yet to serve, had been left behind by the sister battalion. This would facilitate relief and reduce cost. If equalisation of battalions were effected, I should be prepared to leave things very much alone. Frequent changes may be beneficial, but, even when beneficial, they often have an unfortunate and an injurious effect upon the Army generally, and I hold that it is desirable to avoid them. I am quite aware that view will be distasteful both to reformers and to reactionaries—to those who wish to go forward and to those who wish to go back—but I consider it certainly the best for the Service in the circumstances of the case. Now, Sir, how is this equalisation of battalions to be effected? At the present time there are 11 more battalions abroad than at home, and this difference has existed, with the exception of a few years, to a greater or lesser degree, ever since the system was introduced. There are three alternatives before you. You can add to the number of battalions at home; you may substitute, for certain battalions on foreign service, battalions outside of the linked Infantry organisation; or you may bring home a sufficient number of battalions. The first suggestion—namely, to add to the number of home battalions, is open to the serious objection of the great expense it would involve. The cost of an Infantry battalion may be put, roughly, at £40,000, and until it is proved that we are deficient in the numbers of the Army, or that we require more battalions, I am not disposed to recommend any plan which would involve the mere addition to battalions at home, at a cost of £40,000 each. The second method is to substitute, for the ordinary linked Infantry battalion, a battalion of the Guards, and that is an alternative which may well be adopted to some extent, so far as it can be properly used. But, after all, the easiest and readiest way is to bring battalions home from abroad. I am quite aware that, in the case of India, there is much objection, and I would not propose, under any circumstances, to reduce the number of troops there by a single man; but it is a matter for consideration whether we might not ask the Indian Government to dispense with some battalions, giving, as an equivalent, an additional strength to the battalions that are left. This third method of bringing battalions home is that which I shall partially adopt. We propose to bring home a battalion from Gibraltar. Our original intention was to bring home one battalion from Egypt and to substitute for another battalion in Egypt a battalion of the Guards. And we also intend to bring home one battalion from India. That would reduce the number to one pair of battalions abroad which could, for the present, be treated as temporarily employed abroad. Practical equality would thus be restored as far as working is concerned. Recent events in Egypt, however, leading to the increase of the number of troops in that country, have prevented the realisation of our plans in that direction. But in ordinary times, and when any temporary necessity is over and past, it is a thing which can be done. I certainly do believe that, of all the changes that can be made at the present moment—of all the recommendations of the Wantage Committee, as to which we have heard so much—there is nothing which can be done which will so greatly increase the efficiency of the Army as this equalisation of battalions. I have little to say with regard to another branch of the Service—the Cavalry. There is room for some reorganization, and I have listened to what has fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for the Fareham Division. But the only step which I have taken is this, to allow recruits to be enlisted, not for individual regiments, but for special branches of the Cavalry. They will be enlisted in future for Lancers, Hussars, or Dragoons, as the case may be. Those men will be interchangeable between the different regiments. When regiments have to go abroad it will not be necessary to call for volunteers. That, it seems to me, is a sensible step towards the better organisation of the Cavalry, and will have the advantage of giving greater facilities for sending regiments abroad.

VISCOUNT WOLMER (Edinburgh, W.)

What about foreign service?

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

I will give all the details at my disposal. The other night we heard a good deal said about Army Corps, with regard to the maintenance at home of two Army Corps in readiness for foreign service. As a matter of fact, we have quite recently resolved to give up, for purposes of foreign service, the Army Corps system. The force which is held in readiness for immediate embarkation is no longer the First Army Corps and line of communication troops, but a specially constituted force, which may be roughly described as an Infantry Division, a Cavalry Brigade, a Mounted Infantry Battalion, two Batteries of Horse Artillery, three Batteries of Field Artillery, and a large number of special troops, such as bridging and telegraph troops, balloon section, bakery column, and so forth. The force has been constituted with a special view to the probable requirements of one of our small wars, and its strength is, roughly, 20,000 men and 8,700 horses. With the exception of some small details, the stores for this force—so far as we can decide upon them while the country in which it is to operate is unknown—are ready in their assigned places. Assuming that the Reservists were called out and the registered horses called up, this Field Force, as it is termed, would be ready to embark as soon as—in fact, sooner than —the ships would be ready to receive it. This is, of course, subject to any exceptional preparations which might be required in view of the nature of the country to which it has to go. With regard to one phrase I have just used, let me say this, one want in our system —a decided weakness in our system—is the provision required for small wars. That is to say, some facility will be required for filling up and strengthening the battalions required for a small war by utilising, in some way or other, the Reserve. But a small war is not a great national emergency. I have continued the examination which the right hon. Gentleman commenced, and I hope soon we shall have the power of using, for the purpose I have indicated, a small number of the Reserve. When that is done, I hope we shall have accomplished a great object in the way of efficiency. The most conspicuous feature in the military position at this time is the great success which has attended recruiting during the past year, and which appears likely to continue. A full account of this is given in the Report of the Inspector General. The recruits for the year numbered 41,659. Undoubtedly the circumstances have been favourable, and General Feilding has availed himself of the good opportunity thus afforded to him. He has displayed the greatest energy, and has personally visited a large number of recruiting districts. The large number of recruits is due to his zeal and activity, and we are much indebted to him for the flourishing condition of the Services. We have been able gradually to impose checks on special enlistments, and finally, in last month, to dispense with them altogether both in Cavalry and Infantry. The standard of the Guards has been raised to 5ft. 9in.; that of Artillery gunners to 5ft. 6½ in.; and that of Artillery drivers from 5ft. 3in. to 5ft. 4in. While speaking of recruiting, let me just notice, in passing, a statement which was made by the hon. Member for Belfast with regard to the condition of St. George's Barracks recruiting station. He said it was in a lamentable condition. I do not think he was quite candid in his remarks. He referred to an official whom he saw at the War Office, whom he found ignorant of the facts, and who went to inspect the station. It was rather to be inferred from the hon. Member's remarks that he was referring to some military officer with a direct responsibility in the matter; whereas the official in question was Sir Ralph Thompson, the Under Secretary of State for War, no part of whose duty it was to visit any recruiting station. But he did go; and he says that he did not find things so bad as reported. I wish to say this: The building is not in a very satisfactory condition—not such a condition as we should like to see it in —but we are always in expectation tha the National Gallery will take from us some of the ground. While we are in this position of uncertainty, it would not be good policy on our part to spend money in making any large improvements. But, the National Gallery having an intention of encroaching upon us, we are negotiating for ground elsewhere in London. With regard to the special recruits, let me state to the Committee only one or two figures. Of special recruits enlisted during the first half of 1892, who were under the proper standard either in height, chest measurement, or weight, or a combination of these, 2,362 were in Infantry battalions, and on January 1, 1893, there were only 848 out of that number who were still suffering from those deficiencies. This shows that, although much is said against those special enlistments—and we are trying to avoid them where we can—yet, if those recruits are likely young men, they may, under the influence of good food and a steady life, be improved in points in which they were originally deficient. Now, as I have said, elasticity is one of the objects that we seek to attain, and I have myself always been most strongly impressed with the necessity, in regard to the terms of enlistment, that a young man should not have the feeling of being kept a prisoner, as it were, in an occupation which he has come to dislike. If he is under strong temptation to leave the Service, if he is a well-conducted man, I see no reason why he should not be allowed, within reasonable limits, to do so; and, accordingly, we have not only allowed, but encouraged men to pass to the Reserve if they were sufficiently trained men and of good character, when they have been able to show that their parents were in want of their assistance at home, and that they had some certain prospect of employment when they got there. I can conceive nothing more unfortunate for the Army than that a man in that condition should be held to his bargain when his interest and his duty to his own family strongly pull in the other direction. Another feature which cannot fail to have great effect on the attractiveness of the Army consists in the great improvements made of late years, and which are still going on, in the comforts and food of the soldier. Nothing, I believe, has been more important than the greater skill in cooking which has been introduced into all the establishments of the Army. The work carried on by Colonel Burnett, under the energetic stimulus of Sir E. Wood, at Aldershot has spread all over the country; and if any hon. Member will visit, as I have done, a somewhat remote depôt, and see the stock-pot and the other novel culinary implements, and the nature of the food produced, he will get some idea of the great step forward we have taken in this respect. I was told the other day that, so excellent is our system of cooking at Aldershot, that, although hon. Members will hardly believe it, actually the French Army have sent over one or two of their experienced men, in order—I will not say to learn cooking from us, but, at all events, to inspect the new system which has been adopted. It is not enough, however, to obtain recruits; we want to know how they behave, and I am glad to say that, on the whole, the Returns regarding their conduct are satisfactory. I find that the proportion of Courts Martial per 1,000, which was 91 in 1881, had fallen to 53 in 1891. The proportion of minor punishments had fallen from 1,240 to 1,038; the total number of trials for drunkenness on and off duty from 4,808 to 2,078; the total number of trials for desertion and absence without leave from 4,890 to 3,402. These are the Returns for 1891, more recent figures not being yet available, but I believe the improvement is still going on. Generally speaking, as regards the military prisons, one-third of the accommodation is unoccupied, and, owing to the decrease in the required occupation during the last few years, it has been possible to reduce the accommodation at Brixton Prison from 493 to 150. That, I think, is most satisfactory. Then I come to another not less important point, and that is the health of the Army. During 1892 the health of the troops in the United Kingdom has been generally satisfactory. The approximate ratio of admissions into hospital — 772.8 — is practically the same as the previous year. The death-rate—4.30 per 1,000—shows a slight decrease. There were no special outbreaks of disease. The health of the troops abroad has been generally good. There are some exceptions; for instance, there has been a good deal of disease, owing to a particular circumstance, at Alexandria, but, on the whole, there has been a general decrease in the death-rate. That being the condition of things, a question with which I might now be expected to deal is this—whether anything more must be done on a large scale for our soldiers. I had the opportunity the other day of making a few observations on the various improvements recommended by the Wantage Committee, and I do not know that I need go over the same ground again. One thing we have been able to do is to alter the pay of lance-corporals. Up to the present time the number of lance-corporals who have received extra pay, in addition to that of private, has been somewhat less than half the total who held the lance rank. Strong representations were made to Lord Wantage's Committee that this increased very much the difficulty of finding suitable men to accept the promotion. Arrangements are being made to redistribute the pay, and, in the case of the Infantry, to increase it, and in future, practically all the lance-corporals in the Artillery, Engineers, and Cavalry will receive pay, but at a reduced rate; in the Infantry nearly all will receive the full rate of pay as lance-corporal. The rates of lance pay throughout the Army will thus be more uniform, and in almost every case the men will receive pay. Another recommendation which my predecessor had accepted before I came into office, but left over for my consideration, is that with reference to clothing. Throughout the Army the date of issue of clothing will cease to be April 1. A soldier will receive his outfit on enlistment, and his annual refit as nearly as possible on the anniversary of his enlistment. The clothing will cease to be the property of the State in the sense that a man will be allowed to dispose of it when worn for the due time on his discharge to a comrade. He will also receive compensation for any garments he may not require when the anniversary of issues recurs; but he will still remain liable to provide any clothing which his commanding officer may order to be renewed between the regular dates of issue. Those are the main principles, and I cannot but believe they will lead greatly to the comfort and contentment of the soldier, although it throws a certain amount of expense upon the Public Exchequer. So much for the soldier. Is there anything to be done for the officers? Sometimes in this House, speaking from the other side, I have perhaps been a little hard on what are called the grievances of the purchase officers. Still, I have a great sympathy for anyone who thinks he has a grievance. The grievances of the purchase officers have been examined by my predecessor, and I can hold out no hope of any revision of his decisions. But there is one matter which is a grievance, not so much to the officer, as to the interest of the Service, which is perhaps more important. When a colonel completes the command of a regiment he has two courses before him. He may retire, receiving a handsome retiring allowance, or he may go upon a sort of suspensory list—a purgatorial list, if I may use the phrase—in the expectation of possible employment; and while on that list the penalty of his purgatory is increased by the fact that he only receives £200 a year. There are, however, many officers not very rich in this world's goods who cannot undertake to hang on with £200 a year, waiting for the chance of appointment. They may be the very best men for the Service; but just at a time of life when many expenses come upon them, the choice presented to them is a very difficult one. We have thought it desirable to make some addition to the pay of those officers in their period of suspended animation, and that, I think, will be a very great assistance to the authorities, because it will give them a greater choice for subsequent promotion. Let me say one word in all sincerity on the conduct of the officers of the Army, who, I sometimes think, do not receive all the credit they deserve. We all know "what changes have come upon them, how enormously increased their duties have been since that period of new reform to which I alluded in the beginning of my remarks. I believe they are more zealous, better instructed, more hardworking and devoted to their duty than at any previous period in the history of the Army, while at the same time they have lost not one whit of the old and simpler military virtues of courage, endurance and discipline, which have always given the British officer, when tried by emergency, the power that belongs to a leader of men. I am not done with the Army yet, because I have to say something of the Reserve. The Reserve is also in a flourishing condition. There are over 77,000 men, to be increased next year to 80,000. I remember in 1872 and 1873 that 80,000 was the staple figure always quoted in the House, and received with sneers and derision by the opponents of short service. Eighty thousand was the figure always spoken of as the greatest height dreamt of by Army reformers; but here we have attained that figure, and it marks an epoch. We have so many men that we have stopped enrolling in the Supplementary Reserve, for the reason that the Supplementary Reserve was originally instituted to fill an emergency, to fill any deficiency caused by an accidental falling-off in the number of the Reserve; and it seems to me unnecessary to continue enrolling men in the Supplementary Reserve when we have a prospect of 80,000 men, which is really a full Reserve. Turning to the Auxiliary Forces, I find they are in a very similar condition. Taking them in the order of precedence, I am sure that the Committee will be gratified to observe that the recruiting for the Militia was much more satisfactory in 1892–93 than in 1891–92. The number in 1892 was no less than 8,991 in excess of the men who joined in the previous year, the Militia total being 108,288 as against 102,032 in the previous year. Thirteen battalions have been brigaded in camp at Aldershot, of which 10 were brigaded for the first time, a course of training calculated greatly to improve their efficiency. Steps have been taken to train the Militia Artillery at the works which they would man on mobilisation. With regard to the Yeomanry, for a considerable period I have looked upon this Force as not in a very defensible or satisfactory condition. There has been a reduction of establishment of 2,093 officers, non-commissioned officers, and men for 1893. But the changes advised in the Report of the Yeomanry Committee have been embodied in an Army Order, and I have every reason to believe will work well, and will greatly increase the efficiency of the Force. The most important change is the alteration from the troop to the squadron system and the brigading of regiments, thus making a reduction in the number of adjutants and in the permanent Staff, the saving thus effected going back to the regiment in an increased grant. I stand here in a somewhat peculiar position, because I have always persistently and without any hesitation voted against the Yeomanry Vote on every occasion when anyone moved a reduction of it; and I voted against it because I regarded the force as so weakly organised that it really could not be any great increase to the defensive strength of the country. Now we have done something to give it, as it were, a last chance. I hope it may not be the last one; at all events, we give it a chance of greater efficiency and of becoming less an amusement and more a real business occupation to those engaged in it. Let us hope that the effect will be satisfactory, and that, when I am free again to vote as I please, I shall not have any occasion to repeat those votes of the past. Now I come to the Volunteers. The Returns received regarding the Volunteer Force are highly satisfactory. The following increases are reported during 1892:—Establishment, 775; efficients (higher grade), 3,161; total enrolled, 3,377; present at inspection, 4,892; proficients (sergeants), 119. There has been a decrease of efficients (lower grade) 56; proficient officers, 46. A large increase of corps attending brigade camps is shown, no fewer than 96 battalions attending. In August a Force of 15,900 Volunteers was mobilised at Aldershot, and the Reports of the general officer commanding on the conduct and soldier-like bearing of the Force were highly complimentary. The Volunteer Artillery are well reported on. There are now 90 batteries of position, equal to 362 guns, in the hands of Volunteer Artillery. Fifteen corps are wholly position artillery and 26 are mixed corps—that is, batteries of position and garrison batteries. We propose to increase these batteries to 99. Any additional batteries will be armed with 40–pounder guns; the other guns are 16- and 20-pounders. The importance of training our Volunteers at the guns and fortresses they are told off to on mobilisation is very great, and last year 6,000 Volunteers were drilled at works of defence. The dearth of officers is almost the only unsatisfactory feature I have to report. I have spoken a word or two on the subject to-night already. It is hoped that (he inducements we are offering may have some effect. It is hoped that the issue of the Volunteer officers' decoration and the more intimate relations in which the Force has been brought with the Army by the success of brigade camps may do something to obtain officers. The giving of the Volunteer decoration which was, in the first place, a recognition of good service, was expected to offer some inducement to officers to continue in the Service in order to earn it. I may say with regard to this, that although it has been so recently given— though I do not mean to suggest any new departure, yet the question of giving some sort of decoration to the non-commissioned officers has been brought before me. Without committing myself to any course at present, I frankly say that it commends itself to me, as far as I see, as a desirable thing, because everyone who knows the Volunteers is aware that the non-commissioned officers really do a great deal of the hardest work in keeping the corps efficient. One little concession I have been induced to make, or am anxious to make, affects what is known as the united drill allowance. This allowance was given to meet travelling expenses of corps with scattered companies to enable them to attend battalion drills, inspection, &c.; but it was not given when a camp was held, as it was supposed a camp afforded the opportunity for battalion drill. The allowance was 5s. a head. In 1889 the allowance was thus modified: —For one attendance at battalion drill 2d. per mile per man for the journey to and fro; for one attendance at inspection the same. But there was an embargo on it as to camp. This embargo has been found detrimental to the promotion of brigade camps in many parts of the country, as it is financially better for a corps to draw the travelling allowance and to forego the camp allowances (with the camp expenses). I now hope to be able to arrange that travelling allowances shall be given to corps which have attended brigade camps. Now, I do not wish to detain the Committee too long. I have said all I need say as to personnel, and I now come to materiel, both works and munitions of war. In both of these Departments great progress has been made. Let me first speak of the present position and progress of the two great undertakings outside the Estimates that were initiated by my predecessor for Imperial defence and for the housing of our soldiers respectively. As regards the Imperial Defence Loan, the defence works of the military ports at home and abroad are now very near completion. The works at the coaling stations are practically complete at all but four stations; at three of which they are very nearly complete. There have been difficulties in respect of the fourth (Esquimault), with regard to which we have heard something in this House already, as to the apportionment of charge between the Imperial Government and the Dominion Government. These difficulties are now, it is believed, surmounted, and the works will shortly be proceeded with. I am glad to say that the Canadian Government have made a most reasonable offer recently to bear a very fair share of this work. Their offer has been accepted, and the matter is now in course of settlement, and I hope that no further unnecessary delay will occur. As to the BarrackLoan,I may say that of the £4,100,000 included in it £1,680,000 has been authorised for expenditure and about £1,000,000 has been actually expended up to date. At Aldershot, the station which involves the largest expenditure, the greater part of the reconstruction of the camp, so far as accommodation for officers and men is concerned, is completed, and good progress has been made with the accessory buildings. At Shorncliffe a large proportion of the reconstruction has been finished. At the Curragh the first large contract for the two cavalry barracks has been taken, and other works are in progress. At Colchester a large number of married soldiers' quarters are in course of construction, the new military hospital will shortly be begun, and the plans for reconstruction of part of the camp are being made. At London the works are well advanced, and in Dublin the new cavalry barracks have been completed; the reconstruction of the Royal Barracks is nearly finished, and the work is being pushed on at those other barracks at which expenditure under the loan is contemplated. As stated in the brief Memorandum, issued with the Estimates, the first instalment of terminable annuity in payment of the Barrack Loan is charged on the Votes of this year at £32,000; and in view of this large expenditure, the Committee will approve of a rather careful, or even close-fisted, policy being pursued with regard to ordinary works. We have, therefore, endeavoured to confine to the strictest limit the undertaking of new works. We have gone on reasonably with those in hand, and we have given—and this, I think, is important— an increased sum for maintenance. Undoubtedly there is a tendency with all of us on many occasions to spend more upon new works, whether in progress or not, for which there is considerable pressure, and to reduce and starve maintenance and up-keep of old buildings. Though I have often been a party to it myself, I do not think that this is good policy. As to munitions of war, I shall only refer to the most recent and most interesting of our arms—the magazine rifle—which will soon be complete in its issue. Three hundred and forty-six thousand rifles have been manufactured— 56,000 are in the hands of troops, and 70,000 are in India. That is the position of affairs now. The manufacture of the new Cavalry carbine is progressing, and it will shortly be issued. No fewer than 86 batteries (53 at home and 33 in India) are armed with a 12-pounder gun. I hope the hon. Member for West Belfast is not here, for he would urge that we should proceed much faster, and I wish we could. A lighter field gun is being considered, but we have not arrived at any decision on the matter yet. As to the Non-Effective Vote, I have only one point to refer to. It is the question of those known as veterans—men who have a medal for a campaign before 1860, and who have rendered a substantial service of at least 10 years, but who are now in destitute or impecunious circumstances. I would remind the Committee that these men have no title whatever to claim pensions, as they have none of them served to the pensionable age, and they were well aware of that when they left the Service, so that really they have no grievance to complain of. The late Government proposed to give 100 of these pensions a year, and they supplemented that by a round sum of £5,000, which was to be kept filled up as vacancies occurred. That enabled about 850 pensions to be given; but there still remain, as the Committee will well understand, a large number of men who have not received them, and who are every whit as much entitled to the pension as those to whom it has been granted. There is no distinction drawn in the granting of the pensions, and the work is done by the Chelsea Commissioners, who are an exceedingly careful and able Body. The pensions have been granted on the ground, I presume, of necessity and urgency. I hope the Committee will remember, as I have said, that the men have no claim to these pensions as a matter of right, nor would I say they are granted as a mere matter of pity. It is not because a man may have been present in the Crimea or in the Indian Mutiny that they have a claim. That is not the ground on which they are given. They are given in the interests of the Army, because it is injurious to the Service, and especially to the work of recruiting, that men who have served in the Army should be found loafing about the streets in a destitute condition, really bringing disgrace upon the Service. We make destitution—I should be glad if a better word could be found—we make very reduced circumstances, amounting almost to destitution, the condition on which the pensions are given. It may be asked, "Why do you keep the pensions from the more thrifty men who are striving to maintain their families, and give them to the improvident who have reduced themselves to this state of destitution?" My answer to that is to be found in what I have just said, that the pensions are granted in the interests of the Army. It does disservice to the Army that men in a destitute state, perhaps wearing a medal and being able to say that they had taken part in these great campaigns, should be found about the streets in a state of want. Confining the matter to this ground, as we are obliged to do, I hope to be able to make arrangements for a very large increase of the money voted for this purpose during the coming year, which I trust will enable us to take up the greater part of the claims already sent in to the Chelsea Commissioners. This will be met in the Vote, because the natural decrease of the long-service pensions, which are dying out, will give margin enough to enable us to return this money to the soldier. I have made a pretty long statement, but I hope not an unbusinesslike one. I thank the Committee for the patience with which they have listened to me. Any details can, of course, be dealt with on individual Votes. I am happily circumstanced in this: that while I can tell of no new departure and no great fresh reforms, I honestly believe, whatever may be said of our having no Army and having got so little for our money, that no Secretary of State for War has ever been able to give a better report than I am able to give to-night of the condition of the defensive force of this country. Blemishes and weaknesses there are, not always avoidable. The new plant of modern improvement, grafted upon the old, withered, gnarled stem of military tradition, may not produce so symmetrical and shapely a tree as might be developed from a vigorous sapling freshly planted in the soil; but I believe that in real strength, in adaptation to our purposes, and in hold upon public confidence, we perhaps do not lose even by some of the very anomalies which it is so easy to point out. And I am not afraid to ask from the House of Commons even the increased sum which I deem necessary for next year, in order to maintain in efficiency an Army whose present zeal in your service is worthy of its ancient renown.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a number of Land Forces not exceeding 154,442, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad. excluding Her Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1894."—(Mr. Campbell-Bannerman.)

MR. E. STANHOPE

I rise simply to express my sense of the clear, businesslike, and interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman; all the more because it has been made under circumstances which, as we all understand, are very exceptional. We ourselves should be under great difficulty in making any comments now; therefore, in accordance with the understanding that has been arrived at, I move to report Progress.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Mr. E. Stanhope,)—put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Resolution of 10th March, adjourned the House without Question put.

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Bight o'clock till Monday next.