§ SIR J. FERGUSSON (Manchester, N. E.)I desire to say but a few words at the present stage, because, I would much prefer to discuss the Army Estimates after the right hon. Gentleman has made his statement, but as the latitude of discussion upon the first Vote in Committee will not be so large as it has hitherto been, as I am very anxious to set myself right to some extent, and also to make some remarks on a subject of importance to recruiting, I propose to do it on the present occasion. I would say that while I entirely agree with the gallant officer who has just spoken (Sir F. FitzWygram) in his very practical remarks upon some of the wants of the Army and the means by which it could be made more efficient, I could not agree with him that it would be prudent, from any point of view, to withdraw the garrisons from our first-class fortresses abroad with the view of replacing them on the unfortunate outbreak of hostilities. With regard to Gibraltar, anyone acquainted with the course of duty in that fortress must know the duties are so exceedingly heavy that it would be difficult to withdraw one battalion stationed there. And, moreover, I should like to remind the House that in modern wars it is not a word and a blow but a blow and a word. A few years ago an interesting Return was made by the Foreign Office to the House, which shows that war actually preceded the declaration of war, and what would be the condition of this country on an outbreak of war if we should have to reinforce many of our fortificatious; if we had to replace the reduced garrisons of important places and send transports in hot haste to every part of the world in order to make up for the reductions that had been made? But, Sir, the point to which I chiefly desire to call the attention of the House is the appointment of 1752 soldiers in Civil Departments. Very soon after I went to the Post Office my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War (Mr. E. Stanhope) asked me to look into this matter, and endeavour to assist him in the endeavour he was making to find employment for the soldiers of the reserve and those discharged from the Army. After some consideration, I thought the Post Office might do a great deal in furthering my right hon. Friend's intentions, and I made an Order that, subject to any promise or understanding entered into with anyone already in the Post Office Service, all out-door appointments should be offered preferentially to soldiers. Within a few months after the making of such Order I found 2,000 such men already in the employment of the Department, and those best qualified to express their opinion stated with good results to the Service. These men, accustomed as they were to discipline and the punctual performance of duty, were found to discharge the work of the Postal Department with the regularity which might be expected of them, and seeing that only men of good character were taken, there were excellent accounts in respect to their conduct, and I believe now that the best relations are established between the Post Office and the War Office, so that, on the one hand, vacancies are immediately made known to officers in charge of districts; whilst, on the other hand, lists of soldiers available for employment are placed in the hands of officers of the Post Office. Sir, I hope this plan will be carried a great deal further. As has been remarked, my right hon. Friend has induced some of the large employers in the country to do a good deal more than they had done before to employ soldiers in the Service, and I believe other Departments are in the course of being opened. I asked to-day the Secretary for War if he could state what progress had been made by the Committee appointed by the Treasury to consider what posts in all Civil Departments could be given to soldiers, for I hope we shall shortly have information on this subject to show that the matter has been taken up in earnest. It is very well for people to applaud such a field of employment being opened up to soldiers. In the abstract they are always ready to do generous and liberal things, but those 1753 who have anything to do with this matter will find when they come to put it into practice that all sorts of objections are made to such employment of soldiers; so that the head of a Department is placed in a difficulty. There are gentlemen in every part of the country who have, say, deserving servants who have been a long time in their employment, and for whom they are anxious to find good places in the Public Service. Unless there be a distinct intimation given on the part of this House that it is their desire that these places should be given to those who had already served the State, and whom it was particularly desirable to treat fairly and generously, depend upon it this matter will not go far. The right hon. Gentleman, my successor in the Post Office, said something the other day in this House which makes me fear he has been "got at" in respect to employment of soldiers at the Post Office. I know that my right hon. Friend approves of the matter in the main and in the abstract. But we heard something about the parents of boys not liking to go into the Telegraph Service unless they are to be employed altogether in the Post Office. It has been said, with injustice, that I tried to make a rule that when boys were engaged as telegraph messengers it was on some understanding that they were afterwards to enlist in the Army. Nothing was further from my mind, and I only heard of such proposal absolutely to repudiate it and reject it. A boy who is taken into the Telegraph Service at the age of 13 remains there till he is 17 or 18, and then he must pass into other employment. Those who have been already employed on some understanding as to that advancement will undoubtedly receive it, but there has been no such understanding as that which was alleged to have been made to which I have referred. I do not think that boys would suffer any hardship from serving seven years with the colours in the Army if there was an understanding when they entered the Telegraph Service as messengers that, on enlisting in the Army, they have a preferential claim to employment before any other soldier* leaving the colours; and I do not think they would be any the worse as postmen for having learned the discipline and received the intelligence and the physical improve- 1754 ment incidental to the Army Service. My right hon. Friend seemed to think telegraph boys could not be got unless parents could depend on their passing into the regular postal service after four or five years service as messenger. I believe that is a delusion. I believe that the inducements held out to soldiers in the Army now are such that there will be no difficulty in getting boys to come as telegraph messengers and enlist in the Army afterwards. There is no compulsion but every inducement is held out to them. The conditions of the Army Service have been enormously improved, and I do not think there is such a thing now as a soldier being underfed. The rations supplied now are ample and young soldiers improve greatly upon it. Some hon. Members talked about there being no evening meals, but to my knowledge there are battalions at this moment where a good bowl of strong soup is given to all the men who call for it every night. But, Sir, it is to yield to an ignorant and unreasoning objection to say boys cannot be got to enter the Telegraph Service unless there is a promise of permanent, uninterrupted Civil employment. I will suggest to the Postmaster General that he might well turn his attention to those admirable establishments, the Royal Military School at Chelsea and the Royal Hibernian School. I have lately heard that many boys educated at those schools do not enter the Army, and, of course, as boys can only enter as drummers or in some such capacity, there must be a surplus of boys available for other duties, and no more suitable boys could be be found from the Telegraph Service, in which smartness and. punctuality are required, than these boys who receive an admirable education and excellent discipline in those schools. Again, I can fancy no greater encouragement to those schools, or the means of enlarging them, than to get a considerable reinforcement of telegraph boys from them. Having been accustomed to military life in its initial stage they are afterwards more likely to embrace it after a few years' service in the Telegraph Department. This question of civil employment is of very great importance, both as regards the safety of the State and the improvement of the rank and file of the Army. Other nations have recognised it. In Germany, where 1755 nearly all the population pass through the Army, there is an enormous number of places in civil life open to soldiers preferentially which are not here, and with the greatest possible advantage. There is still an unreasonable prejudice against the Army service amongst our population. At one time, after hanging or Botany Bay, the most dreadful thing was to go for a soldier. That certainly ought not to be a feeling entertained now; and if even there was any foundation for it, for the greatest pains are taken to train soldiers up respectably, to give them every inducement to good behaviour, and to find useful employment for them after they leave the ranks. The best way to get parents not to object to their sons entering the Army is to give their boys a prospect of service afterwards; and if this be done you will fill your service with well-trained and thoroughly useful men, you will get a higher class of men in the Army, and your soldiers will return to civil life with an improved capacity for usefulness. I commend this matter to the earnest attention of the Government. I am aware there is no matter affecting the good of the Army which the present Secretary for War has not at heart and will do his best to carry out, and I venture to think that neither he nor the House will consider I have exaggerated the importance of the matter to which I have called attention.