§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONEI gave an intimation to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that the Government would be prepared to lay the Financial Amendments to the Irish Government Bill on the Table, as we hope before the close of the week. I trust that they will be printed and circulated to-morrow morning; but as the changes are considerable, I think it may be for the convenience of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that I should, with the indulgence of the House, take a few minutes of their time in order to make the leading proposals as easy and as clear as possible for them to be followed. The intention which I expressed a considerable time back of asking for the postponement of the Financial Clauses as a whole was expressed under the belief that the rule prevailed which has, I think, been usual of allowing the Government, when proposing an important measure, to choose the order in which the clauses of that measure were presented. Having seen from experience that that view is not taken in the present case, I do not propose to move the postponement of the Financial Clauses as a whole, unless it is made known to me by sufficient authority that such is the general wish of the House. I assume for the present that that will not be done. The first thing I have to do is, of course, to present to the House a balance sheet of Irish finance, as it now stands, after the discovery of the error in regard to Excise. That balance sheet will be moved for by my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury, and the House will have it in its hands to-morrow morning with a few notes and explanations. The changes in the balance sheet would not, I think, have entailed any large changes in the Financial Clauses, but the situation of the Bill has led the Government to observe in what manner they could 1682 reduce and simplify the number and character of the financial questions to be submitted to the House for its consideration; and we have, therefore, remodelled the Financial Clauses, if I may use that expression, with the view of presenting to the House for its sanction a simple plan raising few points of debate. If it is the pleasure of the Committee I will describe in very few words and in a popular manner the effect of the plan; but, of course, the Committee will observe that I do not profess to represent in these few words the effect of the whole of the matter contained in clauses which, although materially shortened, will extend over two or three pages at least—perhaps more—of the Irish Government Bill. The plan as it will stand, if accepted by the Committee, will, I think, be fairly represented by these words, and, of course, I shall not enter into a single word of justification or defence of it. The conveying of information is the only object which I have in making these few remarks. In the first place, the considerable term for which it was proposed that the financial arrangements should endure, is, in our view, to be materially changed. We propose to establish what I may call a provisional term of six years for the financial arrangements, instead of the longer term of 15 years, to be capable of extension until interfered with. During these six years—and this is what I am anxious the Committee at once should understand—the plan will be materially different. In the first place, there will be no change proposed by us in fixing the management and collecting any of the taxes included in the present system of taxation. Secondly, there will be a power given to Ireland to establish new taxes for herself. Thirdly, Ireland's contribution, according to our proposal, will be one-third of her ascertained Revenue; and, fourthly, any tax which may be imposed on her by Parliament expressly for war or special defence. At the close of the six years the contributions and the financial particulars would be revised, and Ireland would collect and manage her own taxes except the Customs and fix her taxes except Customs, Excise, and Posts. This is a very brief summary. Gentlemen who have been kind enough to follow me with the Bill in their hands will, I think, understand it. It is proposed that three of the clauses should 1683 drop altogether. They are No. 11, No. 18, and No. 21. Two of the Financial Clauses are clauses in which we do not propose any change affecting finance. They are No. 18 and No. 19.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURYou mentioned 18 as one of those that would be dropped.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONEYes, I have misread my notes. It is my defective vision, I am sorry to say. The clauses that will be dropped are No. 11, No. 13, and No. 21. Those in which we do not propose to make any change are Nos. 18 and 19. Therefore, we shall propose to take five clauses in their order as they stand. There remain seven clauses. Four of them are clauses which will be supplanted by the new financial provision—namely, Clauses 10, 12, 17, and 20. We shall propose to negative those clauses in order to bring up now clauses with the view of introducing our simpler plan. There still remain throe clauses, and those we propose to postpone until after the new clauses mainly upon the ground of form, because they refer to the Irish Consolidated Fund, and the Irish Consolidated Fund will not have been created by the Bill until the new clauses are introduced. They are Clauses 14, 15, and 16. To summarise, five clauses will be dealt with in their order, and four we propose to negative and to bring up in their places new clauses after we have gone through the clauses in the regular form, and three will be postponed until after the new clauses.
§ MR. GOSCHEN (St. George's, Hanover Square)May I ask my right hon. Friend to say when he will be likely to take the Committee which will be necessary to set up before the Financial Clauses can be discussed? I am sure that the House is grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the lucidity with which he has put this matter before the House. It is extremely convenient that he should give us these general lines before the paper appears, and personally I feel very much indebted to him for the trouble he has taken. I am sure my right hon. Friend rightly appreciates the desire of the House that the Financial Clauses shall not be postponed as a whole, but that we shall be able to discuss the whole finance of the Bill when we come to the Financial Clauses in their order. If some of the 1684 clauses are postponed to the end we still may discuss the policy of the clauses in the place where the original proposals appear, as, I think, my right hon. Friend has suggested. I trust I am right in that conjecture, but, at all events, the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister will tell us when he proposes to take the Committee on those clauses.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONENo doubt the Government will propose that certain clauses now standing in the Bill be negatived for the purpose of introducing these, and it will be for the Committee to consider how far it may be convenient to make that an opportunity for discussing the whole of the financial proposals. Upon that, however, I shall not venture to give an opinion until the matter has been considered in connection with the Forms of the Committee. With regard to the preliminary Committee, my impression is that the usual course in such cases is to so frame the Resolution as to get in general terms the necessary authority for the Committee of the whole House, but not to obtain the judgment of the House upon the proposals. The usual and most convenient course will be to move the preliminary Committee a short time before the clauses themselves are actually reached.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI hope the right hon. Gentleman will, as soon as possible, allow the House to have the terms of the Resolutions to be submitted to the Financial Committee, so that we may be able to judge of their general shape. May I ask whether it is not usual to discuss the general principles of the financial proposals on setting up the Financial Committee? Let me explain. The Speaker ruled out of Order at the beginning of our Committee stage an Instruction dealing with the financial portion of the Bill; and, if my memory serves me rightly, that question could have been raised on the setting up of the Financial Committee stage. If that is so, it would be competent to take a general debate on the financial proposals when we come to discuss them in the Financial Committee.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONEI think it very doubtful whether the Financial Committee would afford any opportunity for pronouncing a definitive judgment on the whole scheme. As to the debate on 1685 the clauses, the Chair will determine what can be done.
§ MR. GOSCHENThe operative part of the Government's financial plan, I presume, will have to be discussed at the end of the clauses. That is to say, we can only discuss the plan which has been dropped on the Motion to negative the existing Financial Clauses? I presume we shall not be able to discuss the operative part of the new plan practically until we reach the end of the Bill.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONEsaid, the Government had it not in their power to place the clauses in closer juxtaposition than they had proposed.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester, E.)Of course, the right hon. Gentleman has present to his mind the fact that on the Second Reading we could not discuss the general and collective aspect of the financial proposals, because they were not before us; and, therefore, it may be necessary for us to take every legitimate opportunity on the Financial Committee to regard these proposals as a whole.
§ MR. SEXTON (Kerry, N.)asked whether questions of Order on matters which might arise in Committee were not for the Chairman to determine?
§ MR. SPEAKERI do not understand that any question of Order was put to me. Of course, the matter would have to be decided when the financial alterations came before the House in Committee.
§ MR. J. E. REDMOND (Waterford)As I understand the brief statement of the right hon. Gentleman, it is his intention to propose a clause which would deprive the Irish Parliament of any power over the collection, management, or control of any existing Irish tax whatever for a period of six years, and I beg to give notice that when that clause comes up for discussion I shall oppose it as unjust and humiliating to Ireland.