HC Deb 27 July 1893 vol 15 cc668-70
MR. A. J. BALFOUR (Manchester, E.)

I desire to put a question to you, Mr. Speaker, in regard to the interpretation to be put on the special Order of the House to be enforced to-night. A good many clauses will come up after 10 o'clock. They are new clauses, and, according to the immemorial procedure of the House, new clauses are read a second time before the Question can be proposed that the clause he added to the Bill; hut I cannot see that this contingency has been provided for in the Closure Resolution. I should like to know, therefore, whether the Closure Resolution, in addition to limiting our discussion in Committee, will abolish the recognised stage of Second Beading discussion of the new clauses as well as all discussion of Amendments to them?

* MR. SPEAKER

It is quite true that the Resolution of the 30th of June was passed when I was in the Chair; and the right hon. Gentleman is justified, perhaps, in asking me for an interpretation of it. But I must observe that the Resolution is a direction to the Chairman of Committees, and that he has already acted upon it, and that he will be called upon again to act upon it in Committee tonight. I would suggest, therefore, that it would be more respectful to the Chairman of Committees that the question should be put to him, and I see no reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not do so now.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Acting on that suggestion, I would venture to ask the Chairman of Committees if he can reply?

THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS (Mr. MELLOR,) York, W.R., Sowerby

With your permission, Sir, I will answer the question at once. The Order of the House of June 30 directs me to put successively the Questions that the several new Government clauses be added to the Bill, and it orders me to do that in succession, one clause after another. That special Order of the House, while it is in force, in my opinion, supersedes the ordinary Rules of the House, that the first Question to be debated should be the Question that the new clause be read a second time, and I think there is good reason for that, judging, I mean, from the construction that I have been able to put upon the special Order of the House. The reason is this—that, as the new clauses cannot be debated or amended, the Question should be put at once that the clause be added to the Bill, so as to avoid two Divisions on precisely the same subject.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his clear answer. I would ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it is his intention, by means of the Closure, to deprive hon. Members, not only of discussion on the Committee stage, but also of the principle of the clauses on the Second Reading?

MR. W. E. GLADSTONE

I understand the question to refer to the subsequent proceedings on adding the new clauses to the Bill. I have no power to give a construction of the Order.

MR. BARTLEY (Islington, N.)

Are we to understand from the ruling of the Chairman of Committees that the new Financial Clauses, which, of course, represent a totally new financial arrangement, are to be taken, and that there is to be not only no discussion on the Amendments, but none on the Second Reading stage, and on the Question, "That the Clause be added to the Kill?" [Cries of "Order!"]

MR. W. E. GLADSTONE

The hon. Gentleman has put a question of Order which I have no authority to interpret.

MR. BARTLEY

Then, Sir, are we and the country to understand that there is to be no discussion on this perfectly new Bill? [Cries of "Order!"]

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order!