§ MR. BODKIN (Roscommon, N.)I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that the use of the Board lesson books in the National schools, though nominally optional, is in reality compulsory, as the Board examinations are conducted on the texts of these books, and the enormous expenditure of public money in their production renders competition by private enterprise for the purpose of producing more useful and interesting books impossible; is he aware that one of the subjects for monitresses at their final examination, to qualify them for the lowest position of teacher, is 1,346 pages of the miscellaneous and worthless matter of these books, in addition to 287 pages of the girls' reading book, the use of which is supposed to be optional in the schools; is he aware that this whole system was most strongly condemned in the Report of the Royal Commission of 1868–70, and that they recommended that—
The National School Board should refrain from preparing or publishing any school books for the future ";will he direct a Return to be made of the number of applications by managers for the use of other than Board lesson books in these schools, and also a Return of the percentage of failures at the last July examination on this subject of the contents of the Board lesson books, as compared with the other subjects included in the examinations; and will he direct a searching inquiry into the entire matter, with a view to carrying out the reform so strongly recommended by the Royal Commission, and of thus bringing 1019 the Irish system into conformity with that prevailing in England?
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (Mr. BRYCE, Aberdeen, S.) (for Mr. J. MORLEY)(1.) The Commissioners of National Education state that the use of the Board's lesson books is not compulsory, but that it is necessary that books selected by managers shall be approved as suitable by the Board. In the absence of suitable alternative books, the examination of pupils and of teachers and monitors has been based on the Board's books, and the questions are framed to test proficiency in them. The Commissioners add that were other suitable books provided, the questions would still be framed to test the knowledge of whatever books might be in use. The expenditure on the production of the Board's books has been deemed necessary to enable the pupils to purchase them at prices within their means. As a matter of fact, these books are sold at cost price, and the Commissioners are reimbursed nearly the amount they expend. The production of the books is open to the public, there being no copyright—a freedom which is extensively availed of by publishers, and, as already stated, it is open to managers to use other books subject to the Board's approval, and to publishers to publish such books. (2.) The number of pages quoted in paragraph 2 is the total number of pages in all the Board's reading books, through which children have had to pass from time to time. (3.) It would exceed the usual limits of an answer to set out the recommendations of the Royal Commission, some of which have been in substance adopted. They did, it is true, make the recommendation which is set forth in the third paragraph, but this the Board have not considered it desirable to adopt. (4.) To the first of the two Returns mentioned in paragraph 4 there will be no objection if the hon. Member will move for it in the usual way. To grant the second Return would, as the hon. Member has already been informed in reply to a previous question, necessitate a considerable expenditure in time and money. (5.) I cannot at present state whether my right hon. Friend will consider the matter as one proper for such inquiry as suggested in the concluding paragraph.
§ MR. BODKINWill the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Commission to which I have alluded in my question did not report in the following words:—
The use of these books is nominally optional, but it is in reality compulsory?I may say I put that in my question, but it was omitted by the Clerk at the Table. Does the right hon. Gentleman, in face of that Report, adhere to the view that the use of the books is not compulsory?
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Belfast, W.)May I ask whether the fact that the books are sold at cost price and delivered free at the schools does not practically stereotype their use in perpetuo in Irish schools?
§ MR. BRYCEI am not sure that that is the case. In reply to the hon. Member for Roscommon, I may say that the Report he refers to was made some time ago. It does not follow that it applies to the present condition of things.
§ MR. BODKINCan the right hon. Gentleman indicate any change since that date to show there has been greater freedom in the use of other books?
§ MR. BRYCEA change has, in fact, been made, and the Board have expressed their willingness to allow other books to be used.
§ MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERDo I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that the books are not supplied at cost price and delivered free of charge? I was informed that was so by the Board.