HC Deb 17 August 1893 vol 16 cc414-5
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE (Rochester)

I beg to ask the hon. Member for Merionethshire whether the only limitation as to the teaching of formularies distinctive of any particular denomination contained in "The Intermediate Education (Wales) Act, 1889," is to be found in Section 4, Sub-section (3) of that Act, which only applies to day scholars; (2) whether the sections dealing with religious education in "The Endowed Schools Act, 1869," are 15 and 16; (3) whether either of them can be put in force except at the demand of the parents or guardians of particular children, and in no case interfere with the religious education and observances of those who remain boarders; (4) and upon what statutory authority the Merionethshire Scheme interferes with the user of the formularies or the teaching of the distinctive tenets of any particular denomination in the case of boarders at a hostel or boarding-house of a school under the Scheme?

THE PARLIAMENTARY CHARITY COMMISSIONER (Mr. T. E. ELLIS,) Merionethshire

(1) There is no other limitation in the Act. That mentioned applies only to day scholars. (2) Sections 15 and 16 of the Act of 1869 and Section 11 of the Act of 1873 directly, and Section 19 of the Act of 1869 indirectly, deal with religious education. Section 19 of the Act of 1869 is amended by Section 7 of the Act of 1873. (3) Section 15 of the Act of 1869 is in part independent of the demand of parents and guardians; but it applies to day scholars only. Section 16 does not interfere with the religious education and observances of those who remain hoarders. (4) The general statutory authority to make provisions of the kind indicated, which do not contravene any of the special provisions of the Act, is conferred by Section 9 of the Endowed Schools Act, 1869, as amended by Sections 3 and 11 of the Welsh Act.

MR. STANLEY LEIGHTON

May I ask whether the words "in the family worship so held, the formularies of any religious denomination shall not be used," are in the Welsh Scheme; and whether that does not limit the discretion of the Governing Body of the hostel or schools; and whether the Governing Body is not expressly left free by Section 16 of the Endowed Schools Act?

MR. T. E. ELLIS

All religious instruction given in the school is completely at the discretion of the local Governing Body. It is so in every Scheme, and in this case the prohibition is subject to Section 16 of the Act. A similar prohibition has been made in the Carnarvonshire Scheme, which has passed the House of Lords, and is now an Act of Parliament.

MR. STANLEY LEIGHTON

But are the words I have quoted not only not subject to, but in direct contradiction of, the 16th section of the Act?

MR. T. E. ELLIS

I do not think they are in direct contradiction; they are simply subject to the section. I take the view of the Charity Commissioners as both legal and formal.

VISCOUNT CRANBORNE

What means are there of testing the legality of the view which the Charity Commissioners take of the Scheme?

MR. T. E. ELLIS

By an appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.

MR. LLOYD GEORGE (Carnarvon, &c.)

Is it not the fact that the Scheme now complained of was the result of a compromise arrived at between two rival Schemes; and when it came before the Merionethshire County Council did the Conservative Members of the body object to it?

MR. T. E. ELLIS

No; I do not think there was any such objection.