MR. CURZON (Lancashire, Southport)I rise respectfully to ask the permission of the House to make a brief personal explanation in reference to a distinct conflict of statement that occurred in the Debate on the appointment of Magistrates to the Lancashire Bench, on Tuesday last, between the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and myself. On that occasion the House may remember that I made a statement as to the composition of the Borough Bench of South-port before and after the period when the right hon. Gentleman had begun to exercise his prerogative of appointment, and I based upon the statement the charge that the right hon. Gentleman had shattered the political balance which previously existed by appointing a disproportionate and an inexcusable number of politicians—— [Cries of "Order!"]
§ *MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member, in making a personal explanation, will abstain from anything of a recriminatory character.
*MR. CURZONOf course I will defer to your ruling. What I was really doing was simply repeating to the House the statement that I made the other day, in order that they might clearly understand the grounds upon which I now ask to make an explanation. The House will remember that I made certain statements which, not once nor twice, but repeatedly, across the Table of this House, the right hon. Gentleman denied, and I have come here this afternoon to repeat those statements to the House. [Cries of "Oh!"] But, inasmuch as it is quite possible that the right hon. Gentleman may have utilised the interval since Tuesday in providing himself with further information on the point, I would wish first to ask him a question of which I have given him private notice—namely, whether he adheres to the statement he made on Tuesday as to the political composition of the Southport Borough Bench; if so, from what source he procured his information, and how he explains or justifies his statement?
§ *MR. BRYCEIf these proceedings are in Order I may say that I not only adhere to my statement, but add that the facts which I have ascertained since Tuesday do more than bear it out.
MR. CURZONInasmuch as the right hon. Gentleman has now definitely and emphatically adhered to the statement of last Tuesday, and inasmuch as I dispute in toto his case—[Cries of "Order!" and "Oh!"]—and am prepared to prove that I am right and that he is wrong — [Renewed cries of "Order!"]—I trust the House will bear with me a few minutes—["Order!"]— inasmuch as my veracity as the Member of Parliament for that Division —[Cries of "Order!"]—has been distinctly impugned. ["Order!"] I will substantiate my statements.
§ MR. MATHER (Lancashire, S.E., Gorton)I rise to Order. I would like to ask whether the hon. Member for Southport is in Order in raising the discussion upon this point, which is simply a matter of fact. I mean that the hon. Member for Southport——
§ MR. SPEAKERThe better plan would be to put the facts as to what took place the other night in the possession of the House, and to state the composition of the Bench at Southport. I think that will be quite sufficient to put the House 1511 in possession of the facts as represented by the hon. Gentleman.
MR. CURZONI will do exactly as you tell me. There are two opposite statements as to the composition of the Bench at Southport. I stated in the remarks that I made on Tuesday that there were upon the Bench at Southport at the present time 19 supporters of the present Government, Gladstonian Liberals, two Liberal Unionists, and 11 Conservatives. [Cries of "Names!"] I did at the time hand the names over the Table to the right hon. Gentleman.
§ *MR. BRYCEWithout giving me an opportunity of consulting about them.
MR. CURZONI beg pardon—I handed over a book in which there wan a list of the names, and I told the right hon. Gentleman distinctly that I supplied it for his benefit.
§ *MR. BRYCEI submit, Sir, that this is extremely irregular. [Cries of "Order!"] The hon. Member, during the Debate, handed across the Table a book, and desired me to accept the version of the politics of the Magistrates which he had marked in it. As I had none of my own data with me, nor any means of ascertaining whether what he had marked in this book was correct or not, it was obviously useless for me to read it, even if I could have done so while the Debate was proceeding; for I could not test his version.
MR. CURZONI do not think I am concerned to deal with the last interruption. I do not wish to stretch my case. I was endeavouring to point out that in reply to, and in contradiction to, my statement, the right hon. Gentleman said on Tuesday that when he came into Office he found only nine Gladstonians and 16 Conservatives on the Bench; that his appointments had raised the number of Gladstonians to 15, as well as two working men, and that the number of Unionists remained 16 as before. Now, these figures are utterly and wholly incorrect. [Cries of"Order!"] I suppose I may be presumed to know—[Cries of "No!"]—something more about a borough with which I have been politically connected for seven years than the right hon. Gentleman, who, so far as I know, has never set foot in the constituency. [Cries of "Order!"]
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order!
*MR. CURZONAnd who, when I ask him for the source of the information upon which he based his statement, declines to give it to me. The statement which I made as to the numbers is correct. I pledge my word to it. I am prepared, if the right hon. Gentleman wishes me to do so, to hand to him not only the numbers but the names. But I am in a position to give the House a little information upon the point. [Cries of "Order!"] I am enabled to show to the House the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has arrived at his figures. ["Order!"]
§ *MR. SPEAKEROrder, order! This is altogether unusual. The hon. Member will give what his version is of the state of the Borough Bench at Southport, and I have no doubt the House will believe that that is a perfectly bonâ fide statement on the part of the hon. Gentleman.
*MR. CURZONWell, Sir, I thought I had given my statement as to the numerical condition of the Bench, and I was proposing, when you interrupted me—[Cries of "Order!"]—when you called me to Order — I speak with perfect deference to your ruling—to point out to the House the method by which the right hon. Gentleman had arrived at his figures—["Order!"]—but if that is out of Order I shall not persist. I shall, therefore, briefly reiterate my statements. [Cries of "No!" and "Order!"] I do not know why I am subjected to these interruptions. My statement is that the figures which I put before the House on Tuesday last—namely, the proportions of 19, 2, and 11, are correct; that I am prepared to hand the names to the right hon. Gentleman; and that until he is able to substantiate his counter figures by some argument better than more assertion—[Cries of "Order!"]—I have a right to think that my case has not been answered.
§ *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (Mr. BRYCE,) Aberdeen, S.I am at a loss to understand the extraordinary heat and vehemence which the hon. Member has imported into this question. [Cries of "Oh!"] I have never made it a question of veracity at all. I stated in reply to the hon. Member that his information was incorrect. I might just as well complain that he impeaches my veracity, but I have never made any 1513 such complaint. He has stated his view—I have no doubt he stated it bonâ fide—I have never imputed anything else; and now, will the House hear my view? I was attacked on Tuesday, without notice that any question regarding any Borough Bench would be raised, with regard to the Borough Bench of Southport, and therefore I was obliged to answer from such very scanty data as I happened to have with me. I have since then made careful inquiries in Southport from four different sources, and the information I have received is as follows: It shows that the case in favour of my view presented on Tuesday is even stronger than I made it then. When the late Government went out of power in August last there wore upon the Southport Borough Bench 20 opponents of the present Government.
§ *MR. BRYCEI must ask the hon. Gentleman not to interrupt me; I am stating my view of the facts. I know quite well it is not his view, but he really must be patient. I am informed that there were on the Bench 20 opponents of the present Government, or, deducting two Conservatives who had left the town though still on the list of Magistrates, 18 opponents of the present Government and seven Liberals. The state of the Bench at present, omitting, of course, the Mayor and ex-Mayor, who are not permanent members, and the latter of whom is not on the rota, and omitting the two Conservatives who are still on the list but who do not now reside in Southport, is as follows:—Opponents of the Government, 16; supporters of the Government, 13; working-men representatives, 2. I ought to say that one of these supporters of the Government is a strong anti-Home Ruler, but he is still in the habit of co-operating with the Liberals upon some other questions, unlike, I confess, most gentlemen of that Party in this House. Therefore, if I deduct him, and reckon him as neutral, I arrive at this result:—Opponents of the Government, 1.5; supporters, 13; working-men representatives, 2. I have only to add one fact as an illustration of the accuracy of the hon. Member. He said there was no vacancy on the Bench last October when I proceeded to make appointments, but there 1514 had been a vacancy caused by death, and a Magistrate on the rota had previously just left the town. I think the House may be also willing to hear that during the six years from 1886 to 1892, when the hon. Member's friends were in Office and he was Member for the Southport Division, the appointments to the Borough Bench were as follows:— Eleven Tories, one Liberal Unionist, and only one Liberal.
§ *MR. BRYCEThe hon. Member no doubt relies on the information supplied to him, and I am obliged to rely on the information supplied to me. All I can say is, that I have done my very best to obtain the fullest possible information.
§ *MR BRYCEI ought also to add that in view of this extraordinary series of appointments during these six years, what the political character—[Cries of"Order!]
§ MR. SPEAKEROrder, order!
§ *MR. BRYCEIf you, Sir, think that my statement ought not to go further, I will not pursue the subject.