MR. MCDONALD CAMERON (Wick, &c.)I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what number of tons of gold ore have been raised and treated in the Dolgelly district from the time the junior Member for Merthyr commenced operations up to the present time; what number of ounces of gold have been produced, and what is the total value of such gold, and the 169 average value of gold produced per ton of ore; having regard to the fact that the cost of mining, tramming, and treating such ore, and extracting the gold therefrom, irrespective of wear and tear, depreciation of machinery, management, administration, and interest on capital, is stated by Dr. Le Neve Foster, in his Report to the Home Secretary for 1891, to be 8s. 5½d. per ton in the case of the Morgan Mine, and also having regard to the fact that large quantities of low grade ore exist in Wales and Ireland, and that the Government are not prepared to work the Royal mines on State account, will they grant to all persons desirous of working such Royal mines the same concessions, pending the Report of the Royal Commission, as those lately granted to the Morgan Gold Mine; whether he is prepared to reduce the royalties on gold obtained from private lands in Wales and Ireland to one per cent. on the product, and in the case of Crown lands to two per cent. on the product pending such Report; and whether, having regard to the fact that persons obtaining gold and silver in private lands in combination with copper, tin, iron, and lead are protected by the Acts of William and Mary, the Government are prepared to grant the same protection to owners of mines in private lands where gold is obtained in combination with zinc blende and other base metals?
§ *MR. GOSCHENThe number of tons of gold ore which have been raised and treated in the Dolgelly district from the time the junior Member for Merthyr commenced operations up to the 16th October is 26,819 tons, the number of ounces of gold produced is 17,280, the total value of such gold is £58,643, and the average value per ton of ore is £2. 3s. 9d. Concessions similar to those lately granted to the Morgan Gold Mine are being granted in other cases where the circumstances are similar. Having regard to the fact that the right of pre-emption in regard to copper, tin, lead, and iron ore has never, so far as is known, been exercised and that no zinc blende mine has been claimed as a Royal mine, it appears to be unnecessary to consider the suggestion that the Acts of William and Mary should be extended to blende ore.
MR. PRITCHARD MORGAN (Merthyr Tydvil)Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to apply the principle of reduction in all cases, or does he intend to preclude me from them?
§ *MR. GOSCHENThat is a point which does not arise out of this question.
§ MR. JOHN O'CONNOR (Tipperary, S.)I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is a fact, as stated in the Mining Journal of the 16th inst., that the junior Member for Merthyr has requested that royalties on all gold and silver obtained from private lands in Wales and Ireland should be reduced to one per cent., as in the case of the Morgan Gold Mine, pending the Report of the Royal Commission on Mining Royalties; whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer has, refused to reduce the royalties on any other lands than those occupied by the Morgan Gold Mine; whether, in consequence of the Chancellor's communication to the junior Member for Merthyr, that,
So long as costs which are due from you remain unpaid, he is unable to enter upon the consideration with you of the question of the royalties to be paid to the Crown,the junior Member for Merthyr has requested the Chancellor of the Exchequer to proceed at once to recover the costs by the sale of his property, rather than the matter shall be indefinitely delayed; and, whether he will proceed to the sale, with a view afterwards to the reduction of the royalties throughout Wales and Ireland; and, if not, whether he will reduce such royalties pending the decision of the Royal Commission on Mining Royalties?
§ *MR. GOSCHENMy answer to the first paragraph of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. As regards the second paragraph, there are other lands besides those occupied by the Morgan Gold Mine upon which I have consented to reduce the royalties. With regard to the third paragraph, I have declined to deal with the hon. Member for Merthyr so long as he persists in his refusal to pay the State what is legally due from him. The hon. Member has requested me to proceed to recover the costs 171 by levying an execution on his goods; but I understood that the feeling of the House was against gratifying the hon. Member in his desire for this sordid form of martyrdom. The position taken up by the hon. Member only prevents the Woods and Forests from dealing with him personally and with his personal affairs. It does not arrest the dealings of the Woods and Forests with other parties, and in these there is no delay. There is no reason, therefore, from that point of view, for selling up the hon. Member.
MR. PRITCHARD MORGANI beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that gold has been found in a property, known as the Champion Mine (Moel-Isprey), near Dolgelly, in combination with zinc, and whether the persons who have discovered it are entitled to the same protection as they would if the gold had been in combination with copper or lead; and, if not, whether the Government are prepared to grant the same privileges to those working for gold and zinc in combination as has already been granted by the Acts of William and Mary to those who are obtaining gold in combination with copper or lead; and whether, having regard to the promising indications of gold which exist in several localities in Wales and Ireland, the Government will consider the advisability of having an informal survey made by practical geologists and experts in mining?
§ *MR. GOSCHENSo far as can be ascertained there has been no working for blende at Moel Isprey for some months past. Some blende was obtained in 1890, but although it was believed to contain a little silver, it was treated and disposed of as blende ore and no claim was made by the Crown in respect of it. The Acts of William and Mary were not passed for the protection of those working for gold in combination with copper or lead, but for the protection of the owners of copper and lead mines when gold or silver was found to exist in the copper or lead ore obtained from their properties. Neither the owners of Moel Isprey nor the owners of any other property producing blende ore have 172 expressed any anxiety that the Acts of William and Mary should be extended to blende ore, and there is no reason to suppose that any practical result would follow such an extension. Many practical geologists and mining experts, commencing with Sir Roderick Murchison, have at various times expressed their views on the indications of gold in Wales and Ireland, and there seems no justification for incurring the expense of a further informal survey.
MR. PRITCHARD MORGANWill the right hon. Gentleman say whether within the last 20 years the improvement of machinery has not been such that ore which at the time Sir R. Murchison expressed his opinion did not pay, would now be payable, especially with regard to the fact that the ore in the Morgan Mine was mined and treated for less than 8s. 6d. per ton?
§ *MR. GOSCHENI see no reason for a Government survey. Certain explorations are proceeding and certain results will follow; but there is no reason for the Government to take the matter in hand.
MR. PRITCHARD MORGANAm I to understand that I am the only victim, and that royalties are not to be reduced in my case simply because I will not pay costs in the way he desires?
§ *MR. GOSCHENMy position is this—a business-like position to be taken up by any one in a position of trust—not to deal with the hon. Member, or—not to speak of the hon. Member personally—not to deal with parties who, after a Court of Law has awarded a debt against them, refuse to pay. It is impossible to deal with parties who say they will only pay their debts if they are sold up.
MR. PRITCHARD MORGANIs it a fact that the law has not been revised for 300 years, and that the Judges are not agreed as to the construction of the Acts of William and Mary?
§ *MR. GOSCHENAny hon. Member who has read the remarks of the Judges will see that I am perfectly justified in the action I have taken.