HC Deb 18 March 1892 vol 2 cc1293-300

2. Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £110,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1892, as a Grant in Aid of Local Rates in Scotland.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

I venture to make a suggestion, not in any controversial spirit, but to meet the convenience of the House, and it is this: that if the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury would promise to interrupt other business on Monday at 10 o'clock, or at some other and earlier hour, in order that the Debate on the Report stage of the Scotch Equivalent Grant might then be taken, I think there would be no objection to this Vote passing now without any discussion. I am not of opinion that the discussion will be a very protracted one. At the same time, as the House sat very late this morning, considering the advanced hour which we have now reached, and having regard to the fact that this is a matter of very great gravity to Scotland, it would be convenient to the Scotch Members and conducive to the rapid progress of business if my suggestion were adopted and this question were entered upon at an earlier hour.

(12.20.) MR. A. J. BALFOUR

May I put a question to you, Mr. Courtney, upon a point of Order? Could the order of Supply on Report he made to differ from the order in which the Votes in Supply were taken—in other words, could the Report of the Vote on Account be put after the Vote of the Supplementary Estimate for the Scotch Equivalent Grant?

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. COURTNEY,) Cornwall, Bodmin

The rule would be that the Report of Supply would follow the order in which the Votes were granted in Committee. Of course, by consent the order might be varied.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I am anxious to meet in every way the views of the Scotch Members, and I should be quite ready to interrupt the discussion of the Small Holdings Bill at 10 o'clock on Monday night; then to take the Scotch Vote. But certain considerations must not be left out of view. The hon. Member for West Belfast desires to make a statement on the Teachers' Pension Grant.

MR. SEXTON

Yes, on the Appropriation Bill.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

On Second Reading?

MR. SEXTON

Yes, I think that would be the most convenient stage.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Very well then, Sir, that removes the difficulty But, Sir, I think it ought to be understood that if the Scotch Vote is taken at 10 o'clock it should be finished at 12 o'clock, in order that we should go on with the Vote on Account; or that if the Scotch Debate goes on longer, there should be no discussion on the Vote on Account. On these conditions I shall assent to the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. Otherwise there seems to me to be no use assenting to the arrangement if we are only going to transfer the burden to Monday evening. If the House will agree that Scotch business should go on between 10 and 12 o'clock, and the Debate on the Vote on Account be taken at 12 o'clock, I shall offer no opposition.

MR. SEXTON

That arrangement is decidedly monstrous, and would not meet with the general consent of the House.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

The hon. Gentleman refuses to fall in with the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Stirling Burghs. It is within his power to insist upon the Report of the Vote on Account being taken before the Scotch Vote. In these circumstances, there is no alternative for the Government but to go on with the Scotch Vote to-night and to take the Report on Monday.

MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

Surely there may be some way of avoiding renewed disputation. Some of my friends are resolved, if ray right hon. Friend perseveres with the Vote, to move that the Chairman should report Progress. That I should be sorry to see. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what magic there is in 10 o'clock? Could we or he not steal a little more time before 10? Could he not interrupt the Small Holdings Bill during the dinner hour? That would satisfy the requirements of the case.

MR. SEXTON

If we knew when the right hon. Gentleman would be willing to report Progress on the Small Holdings Bill we should then be able to say whether there would be sufficient time left for the discussion of the other two subjects.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

Ten o'clock is the hour ordinarily selected by the Government on those occasions when they consent to cut short the Debate upon the main business of the night, and I should hope that some arrangement might be come to by which both subjects might be taken between 10 o'clock at night and 1 o'clock in the morning.

MR. BUCHANAN

Surely the right hon. Gentleman might make some allowance for these two discussions. There is no particular urgency for the Small Holdings Bill. It will probably occupy more than one Sitting. The other two subjects—the Irish Vote and the Scotch Vote—owing to the circumstances in which we are placed are undoubtedly urgent, and must be taken on Monday. The Scotch Members have now only the alternative of discussing the Vote after half-past 12 to-night or after 12 on Monday, and I do not think that is a fair alternative.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

If there is an understanding that the Second Reading of the Small Holdings Bill should be taken not later than Thursday night and be then concluded I will be glad to stop the discussion on Monday night at 9 o'clock. If that is the understanding I will be glad at once to come to that arrangement.

(12.30.) MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

May I venture to hope that our modest little Scotch Vote may be allowed to creep in before the larger Vote on Account? It is only right it should resume its proper place.

(12.30.) MR. SEXTON

I have no doubt the "modest little Scotch Vote" will have considerable debate expended upon it which may extend through the whole evening, If the Vote on Account is taken first I think I can undertake that so far as the Irish Members are concerned the discussion will conclude by half past 10.

(12.31.) MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N)

Very grave questions arise in connection with the Scotch Vote. There is the question of Scotland's contribution, as to which, the Government for two years have promised a Committee of Inquiry. We shall contend that the sum allotted is inadequate and inefficient, and there is also a serious question as to the distribution between counties and burghs in Scotland; and lastly the question of applying money taken from the pockets of the working classes for the relief of rates. These are serious questions for the consideration of which the time proposed to be allowed is totally inadequate.

(12.32.) MR. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen, E)

I quite agree that the time will be insufficient and anybody must admit that the Scotch Members have not justice allowed them in the proposed arrangement. We ought at least to have some elasticity allowed, and if we get to the discussion at half past 10 we ought at least to be allowed to go on until 1 o'clock.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

On Report you can do so.

MR. ESSLEMONT

The hon. Member for Belfast expects that the Irish discussion will close at half-past 10, and I suppose some compromise of the kind is the best that we can expect under the circumstances. But I should have thought the right hon. Gentleman might have gone a little further, agreeing to stop the Small Holdings discussion at 8 o'clock, the dinner hour. Then immediately afterwards, at, say half-past 8, the hon. Member for Belfast might proceed with the Irish discussion which, if closed at 10 o'clock, would give a little more time to the Scotch Business.

(12.34.) MR. MARJORIBANKS (Berwickshire)

I hope my hon. Friends will agree to the proposal made. The hon. Member for Belfast agrees that the Irish question shall only occupy up to half-past 10 on Monday, and it is quite evident we shall be in a much better position than if we begin at 25 minutes to 1 to-night. Report of Supply will not be stopped by the 12 o'clock Rule, and we shall be free to carry on our discussion until 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning. We shall have a far better position on Monday night than we have now.

(12.35.) MR. SEXTON

Of course I can only undertake to facilitate Business so far as my personal influence goes. I will do everything in my power to carry out the arrangement.

(12.35.) DR. CLARK

The hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Pritchard Morgan) endeavoured several times to speak on a question in which he is interested, and now he has gone home highly indignant. Other Gentlemen who have now left the House may have questions to raise and may put down Amendments for the Report stage. If the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House (Mr. A. J. Balfour) had accepted the proposal made earlier in the evening and had given the Supplementary Vote its proper position, we should not have been in this difficulty. The best way out of it is, I think, to postpone the Small Holdings Bill to another day. The Government have appropriated extra time and when we propose terms they will not recede from their technical rights. But if they insist on technical rights, so can others, and we shall not have much harmony in the conduct of business. The Government have conceded nothing to us. We looked for the opportunity to have this question discussed. It was postponed last year. At the last moment we are given the choice of discussion now or after midnight some other time. This is not the way to facilitate business. Give us a decent time to discuss a matter vitally affecting Scotland and we can come to terms. As it is we shall find when we enter upon Report of Supply that a number of Members who have now gone away will raise questions leading to discussion, and Scotch Members will be in a worse position than they are in now. I think the Government ought to concede something. Financial matters are pressing, but that is not the case with the Second Reading of the Small Holdings Bill. I beg to move to report Progress. It is ridiculous, it is preposterous, that we should at this time decide a Vote which so vitally affects the interest of Scotland. We are in a minority, and we may have this forced upon us by English votes against our wishes; but we can protest, and do so protest. The course you are pursuing lends encouragement to the desire to have Scotch questions settled by Scotchmen on Scottish ground—not here, where English votes thrust measures upon us. Do you wish us to remain in an Imperial Parliament. [An hon. MEMBER: No] I am glad to hear that. Probably, then, we shall make ourselves objectionable, and shall be doing good work. I beg to move, Sir, that you do report Progress, in order that right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench may be induced to give some answer, and indicate some reasonable course.

Moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress—(Dr. Clark); but the CHAIRMAN, being of opinion that the Motion was an abuse of the Rules of the House, put the Question thereupon forthwith.

(12.40.) The Committee divided:—Ayes 51; Noes 166.—(Div. List, No. 48.)

Original Question again proposed.

(12.50.) MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

I voted with the Government in the last Division, against a great number of my colleagues from Scotland on the ground that I understood the Government were willing to secure for Scotch Members ample discussion of the Vote on Report stage on Monday, the Government agreeing that the Report stage shall be entered upon about half-past 10. That is the understanding, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman—if I may use an expression he and I, as Scotchmen, understand—I hope he will "homologate" that arrangement, and that it will be accepted and endorsed without further dispute.

(12.50.) MR. A. J. BALFOUR

The right hon. Gentleman has put the arrangement in an explicit form. Of course, the arrangement depends not upon the Government alone; hon. Members generally must assist is carrying it out. The arrangement in this: that we take the Vote now without further discussion; that on Monday we take as first Order the Small Holdings Bill; that the Debate on that Bill shall be adjourned at 9 o'clock on Monday—("Dinner hour")—well, say, the dinner hour. Immediately after that we take the Report of the Vote on Account. Discussion on this shall stop, so far as the general sense of the House goes, though of course the Government cannot do more than use their influence—so far as we have anything to do with it, the discussion shall stop at half past 10. The Scotch Members may then begin their discussion and carry it on to such hour as they please. Then on Thursday, on consideration that the Government give up half the night on Monday, which would otherwise be devoted to the Small Holdings Bill, there is an understanding that that Bill shall be read a second time. Of course, it is understood that the Report stage of the Vote on Account finishes at half-past 10 on Monday.

(12.52.) MR. WALLACE (Edinburgh, E.)

The First Lord may say he will use all his influence to secure the commencement of the Scotch Debate at half-past 10, but I question whether the Government have sufficient influence to enable them to carry out their beneficent intentions towards us. It may be possible to procure the commencement of the Irish discussion at 9 o'clock, but I question very much whether it is within the power of the First Lord, except by the use of the Closure and the permission of the Chair, to secure the termination of such a discussion in an hour and a half. We have had a clear statement from prominent Irish Members that they consider one of the subjects to be discussed of deep importance; and from our experience we may well doubt whether it is possible, with the best intentions, and even with the support of the Government in the direction of brevity, so to compress the discussion that it shall terminate within the time mentioned. I think if the Small Holdings Bill were deferred there would be some hope of both the Irish and Scotch discussions being got through in a reasonable time, but in the present offer I see no hope whatever of the Scotch discussion beginning earlier than at the hour we very nearly had the unfortunate chance of launching upon it this morning. Unless I have some more hopeful, more probable arrangement stated from both sides of the House, I shall reserve to myself, if I can procure your consent, Mr. Courtney, the right to move another dilatory Motion.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next.

Committee to sit again upon Monday next.