NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 234.)

HC Deb 16 June 1892 vol 5 cc1295-336

CONSIDERATION.

Order for Consideration, as amended, read.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. JACKSON,) Leeds, N.

I understand it would be more convenient that the Bill should be recommitted.

Order discharged.

Bill re-committed.

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W.)

If there are any Amendments to be made in the body of the Bill, shall we have to take the body of the Bill first, or the new clauses first and the body of the Bill afterwards?

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. COURTNEY,) Cornwall, Bodmin

The Bill being re-committed, generally the procedure will be the same as ordinarily in Committee. We shall have to go through the clauses as they stand before taking the new clauses.

Clause 1.

MR. MACARTNEY (Antrim, S.)

I think the most convenient way will be for me to move the rejection of this clause in order to refer to the statement made yesterday by the Chief Secretary. An Amendment was moved by the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton), and upon the Debate which then took place my right hon. Friend suggested that he saw a Way of meeting the difficulty that the hon. Member for West Belfast felt in agreeing to this clause. The proposal he made to the Committee was to the effect that, the hon. Member for West Belfast having suggested that the Christian Brothers were prepared to accept a form of Conscience Clause, he was on his part ready to make a recommendation to the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland to reconsider the rule which prevents the Christian Brothers becoming a portion of the national system of education in Ireland. When that statement was made by my right hon. Friend I felt constrained to say that I could not give my consent to it, and that I must, on behalf of myself and my friends, hold myself and them perfectly free as to any future action we may feel compelled to take upon this suggested alteration of the rule of the National Board. That action had been commented upon in a way that I think is somewhat unfair both to myself and to my hon. Friends. It has been suggested in some important quarters in the Press that we who were present here yesterday had adopted an attitude that differed more or less materially from the attitude adopted by my hon. Friend the Member for South Tyrone (Mr. T. W. Russell), on the First and Second Reading of the Bill. That I entirely contest. The view which was expressed yesterday by the hon. Member for East Down (Mr. Rentoul) appears to me to be precisely that expressed by the hon. Member for South Tyrone on the First and Second Reading of this Bill. I venture to remind the Committee of the opinion expressed by the hon. Member for South Tyrone. He said, speaking on the First Reading— The right hon. Gentleman drew attention to the fact that, although this system of national education was a mixed system, yet by the consent alike of Protestant and of Catholic it was rapidly becoming denominational. I challenge the fact itself, and I challenge the description of the fact"; and then he went on to say— I am agreeably surprised that the right hon. Gentleman appears to have taken a little bit of everybody's advice, and the only persons left out in the cold are the Christian Brothers. The answer to that is, let them do as the monastery schools do and the convents do, and they will come under the national grant at once; but so long as they insist upon a Catholic atmosphere in the schools, they cannot expect the rules of the National Board upon which this system is founded to be broken down to suit them. Then, upon the Second Reading of the measure, my hon. Friend the Member for South Tyrone alluded to this peculiar aspect of the case, and drew attention to some evidence given by the Director of the Christian Brothers' Schools before the Commission of 1867, not only with regard to the general character of Catholic denominational education, but also with regard to the character of the emblems. Then he went on to say— I say that to introduce these schools into the national system of education would be to break up the foundation principle of that system. That may be a proper thing to do, but it should be done with fair notice—fairly and squarely. There is no reason why every denominational school should not be admitted if the Christian Brothers are admitted, and there is no reason why the Church should not proceed straightway to endow religious teaching of all kinds. But we in Ireland have disestablished a Protestant Church, and we are not willing to endow another Church by this indirect but thoroughly effective means. The hon. Member for East Tyrone (Mr. Reynolds) said he objected to touch the question of denominational teaching; but that if it were touched at all, it should be dealt with as a new principle, and not by introducing the thin end of the wedge. It seems to me that his remarks were founded on the same principle as those of the hon. Member for South Tyrone, and I would say that I and my hon. Friends draw a very strong distinction between denominational teaching and the system of mixed education. I admit absolutely and frankly that the principle of mixed education in Ireland has been very seriously invaded not only by Members of the Roman Catholic Church, but by members of the Episcopalian and other Churches. The principle that now exists in Ireland is that of mixed and unmixed education, but denominational teaching is excluded from all the schools under the Board. A member of the Board stated before a Royal Commission in 1870 that the intention of the founders of the system was to prevent any of the children going to schools under the Board from being subjected to any religious teaching to which their parents could object, and he went on to state that that principle was carried into effect by positive and absolute rules. Now, the right hon. Gentleman yesterday said he was willing to recommend to or to lay before the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland a fresh form of Conscience Clause. I have since communicated with many gentlemen who would be in a position to form an opinion on this subject, and I have asked them to let me have their views with regard to it. They have done so; and their view is that any alteration of the Conscience Clause which exists at the present time is objectionable, and would be a departure from the principle of this Bill. That being so, it is impossible for me to assent to the proposition of my right hon. Friend. I had no opportunity yesterday, nor shall I have to-day, of taking the opinion of the House upon the question, so I simply state that the proposal is one which, so far as I can ascertain, is objectionable to those who are best fitted to speak with authority on the subject of education in that portion of Ireland which I represent. I wish to point out that the form in which the right hon. Gentleman made the proposal—I refer to the report of it in the Times—has led intelligent and competent authorities to entertain a dislike to it. I would here again refer to the evidence given by the member of the Education Board in Ireland before the Commission in 1870. When asked— Are the emblems in the schools such as would be objectionable to Protestants? his reply was "Yes, I think so." Now, having regard to the various objections which the Christian Brothers have had to coming under the system of the National Education Board in Ireland, it may be imagined that the proposal made yesterday by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Jackson) went further than it really did. I will read what the Pall Mall Gazette says upon the subject— The schools of the Christian Brothers, Mr. Jackson agrees, shall participate in the additional grants now to be made. Some form of Conscience Clause is to be introduced, but the Catholic emblems are not to be removed, nor of course is Catholic religious instruction during hours not devoted to secular teaching to be interfered with. It goes on to say— And thus it remains true to say that every glass of whisky drunk during the Belfast Convention will contribute something to the maintenance of Catholic emblems in the schools of the Christian Brothers. Now, I do not think that the words of my hon. Friend bear that meaning; but if the interpretation given to them by such an important organ—at all events, in Radical circles—as the Pall Mall Gazette is a true one, and they mean something very different from what my right hon. Friend intended, it can be understood that I and my hon. Friends are anxious to have a definite statement from the right hon. Gentleman as to the real extent of the offer he made yesterday, and which was accepted by the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton). This is a matter of very great importance, upon which I and my hon. Friends have the strongest possible opinions, and I trust, therefore, it will not be considered that I have unduly taken up the time of the Committee.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be omitted."—(Mr. Macartney.)

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

(4.44.) COLONEL NOLAN (Galway, N.)

The hon. Gentleman, who, I believe, is a large shareholder in the Pall Mall Gazette, has certainly advertised that paper uncommonly well in the House of Commons. The leading article he has quoted appears, to a certain extent, to express triumph over some of the Ulster Members. As for the statement that Every glass of whisky drunk during the Belfast Convention will contribute something to the maintenance of Catholic emblems in the schools of the Christian Brothers, no doubt it is true in a sense, as it would also be true that every glass drunk would help to maintain other schools in Ireland, or that every glass drunk at a meeting held for the overthrow of the British Government would tend to the support of the British Army and Navy. Now, what is the present position of affairs in the towns of Ireland? The boys of the schools are getting no help whatever from the State, simply because the Christian Brothers only receive assistance from the Science and Art Department, which is very small and inconsiderable. I cannot understand why Protestants in the North of Ireland should care so much about the education of Catholics in other parts of Ireland. I would point out that the Conscience Clause suggested by the Chief Secretary will thoroughly protect all Protestants. It appears to me that the hon. Member for South Antrim has referred to the article in the Pall Mall Gazette merely in order to show that his Party are not beaten. But we do not consider his Party at all; we only want to get a share of taxation for the education of boys in Ireland. We believed that the result of the compromise suggested by the right hon. Gentleman would be that the Christian Brothers would get a fair share of the fee grant, and it was upon that understanding that we withdrew our opposition to the Bill. On the whole, I think it is a fair and straightforward arrangement, and the article read by the hon. Member ought not to interfere with it.

THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member for South Antrim made a speech with the object of getting a declaration from the Chief Secretary, and the discussion ought to be confined to that.

(4.49.) MR. SEXTON

The question at issue yesterday was whether schools should be included in the Bill unless they were declared by the State to be inefficient. I withdrew my Amendment and agreed to accept the concession of the right hon. Gentleman. The hon. Member for South Antrim, on no better plea than some racy and humorous remarks in an article in an evening newspaper, invites the House to reopen the question. I trust that the House will be satisfied with the full Debate which has taken place with regard to it, and not agree to go over the same ground again. Had the schools of the Christian Brothers been excluded from the Bill, it must have proved abortive in the towns and cities of Ireland, as it could never have been carried into effect. As to the form of the Conscience Clause, I would point out that that which is enforced in the primary schools is one which was devised by the Board itself, and that it has never received the sanction of Parliament. It is one also that has been constantly objected to, and twenty years ago it was condemned by a Royal Commission consisting equally of Protestants and Catholics. I challenged hon. Members yesterday to say in what respect the Conscience Clause under which the schools of the Christian Brothers work differs from the Conscience Clause enforced in the primary schools of England and Scotland. There was no answer. It is substantially the same. We desire not only that the Christian Brothers' schools, but that the schools of the Church Education Society and other Protestant voluntary schools in Ireland should benefit by the Bill. There was no suggestion to override the rules of the National Board, or that any schools should be brought under the Bill unless they complied with those rules. The suggestion made yesterday was that it should be referred to the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland to consider a revision of their rules, so that they may be better applied to the primary system of education in Ireland. The posi- tion taken up by the hon. Member for South Antrim was that the Commissioners should not be allowed to consider the revision of their own rules. But surely you would have established a new state of things. Under the Bill as it stood you would have had neither free nor compulsory education. The parents could not have been fined if they sent their children to the Christian Brothers' schools, and the managers of those schools could not be compelled to receive them without payment. Therefore, I say that the suggestion of the hon. Member for South Antrim is not entitled to serious consideration.

*(4.55.) MR. SYDNEY GEDGE (Stockport)

The hon. Member who has just sat down states that the Conscience Clause is an absolute security. I agree with him, and, therefore, I ask what is the necessity for the clause relating to the religious objection of parents to send their children to a school? If the Conscience Clause is an absolute protection, why is anything more required? The insertion of this provision is an admission of the principle that it is not a protection, and opens the door to the argument that there must be a Board School in every English parish, and the effect of them in Ireland may be to do away with compulsory education.

(4.59.) MR. JACKSON

The hon. Member for South Antrim has quoted a newspaper article, but anyone who heard the statement I made yesterday must know that it could not be interpreted as it has been interpreted in that article. The question raised by the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton) was as to the Conscience Clause in the Intermediate Act of 1878, which he said the Christian Brothers preferred to the clause in the rules and regulations of the Education Board. The question I was asked was whether I would consent to refer to the National Education Commissioners whether that clause might be substituted in the rules and regulations of the Commissioners in place of the clause which now exists. I tried to clearly express my opinion, and I believe my actual words were, "I decline to make any recommendation to the Education Commissioners." I still hold that opinion, and I say that the proposal made to me was one that I could not reasonably resist. I shall not discuss the question as to whether or in what respect the Conscience Clause in the Intermediate Education Act of 1878 differs from the Conscience Clause in the rules and regulations of the Commissioners, because I do not desire to express any opinion upon the relative merits of these two clauses. The simple question was that certain schools in Ireland which objected to the Conscience Clause in the rules and regulations of the Education Commissioners were willing, and in fact were working under the clause which has been prepared by Parliament, and embodied in the Act of 1878. I thought, and think still, that the proposal was not in itself unreasonable, and I certainly did assent to the question being referred to the National Education Commissioners to say whether they were able to accept that clause in lieu of that included in the rules and regulations. And, as was stated by the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton), of course no grants will be made to either the Christian Brothers' Schools or to the Church Educational Schools, or to any of the other schools, without conforming to the rules and regulations of the Education Commissioners. I must say that I consider the interpretation which has been given one entirely unwarranted by anything I said, and I hope, after this expression of opinion, my hon. Friend will feel that there is no justification for the construction which has been put upon it.

*MR. BARTON (Armagh, Mid)

I desire to associate myself with my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim in reference to this concession, which I quite understand my right hon. Friend gave, with the object, perhaps, among others, of ensuring that this valuable measure should not be lost. While joining in the protest, I fully recognise that, and I am sure the House will agree with the wish that the Bill which will undoubtedly confer great benefits on Ireland should pass. My right hon. Friend will fully understand the position in which we are placed. We are the only Members present representing the Ulster constituencies, and those constituencies feel deeply on this question. From the first, one of the points they have insisted on is the one now in question. I have received this resolution from the Free Education Committee— The Committee desire to express their unshaken adherence to the Conscience Clause as at present enforced in National Schools. Thus I am only performing my duty in saying we regret that the right hon. Gentleman has in any way relaxed that rule. As I understand, my right hon. Friend has spoken of referring one matter only to the Commissioners for consideration—namely, the question of substituting the Conscience Clause in the Intermediate Act for the Conscience Clause at present enforced in the national schools. I did not hear anything further in his speech. He said that he was only going to refer that matter to them, and thus he cannot be misunderstood as pressing on the Board a course of action. While I think the explanation of my right hon. Friend has fully disproved the unfortunate construction which certain newspapers have placed upon his statement, my right hon. Friend will recognise that my hon. Friend and I are only representing the views of the Protestant community of Ireland in saying that we do object to any relaxation of the rules. We cannot, however, push that objection to the length of in any way stopping a measure which will, I have no doubt, not only confer great benefits upon Ireland, but also great credit on the right hon. Gentleman.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.

I am afraid that I am partly responsible for the inconvenience to which my hon. Friend, or, rather, the other Representatives from Ulster, have been placed by not being able to be present here at the discussion of a measure in which they take great interest. My hon. Friends will recognise that the course of Business during the present week has been difficult to manage so as to suit the convenience of everybody, and that really the Government bad no choice but to take the Bill on the day we did take it. I had less reluctance in coming to that arrangement, as I am convinced that in reality no question has been raised either yesterday or today which can legitimately arouse the susceptibilities of any section of the Protestant population of Ireland. What my right hon. Friend has done is to promise that the National Board of Education should consider two alternatives to the Conscience Clause. I do not wish, of course, to express an opinion upon this clause, but I think I may say that no one has contended that the Conscience Clause embodied by the Act of 1878—a Conscience Clause accepted by all the sections of Irish opinion at that time, and it never has been criticised, so far as I know, by any body of Irish opinion since—nobody will, I think, pretend to contend that that Conscience Clause is less stringent in its character or less capable of affording adequate protection to all children, to whatever denomination they may belong, in Ulster or any other part of Ireland. The suggestion has been made that my right hon. Friend went much further than that—that he proceeded not merely to suggest the consideration of two alternatives to the Conscience Clause, but that he also desired to have the other rules and regulations of the Board of Education overhauled with a view to modifying the present system by which education is regulated in Ireland; and suggestions have been made that my right hon. Friend desired either directly or indirectly to open vexed and most controversial questions. That is not a legitimate conclusion to anything my right hon. Friend said; it does not express either the views or intentions of the Government, and that being so, I hope my two hon. Friends, who are the only Representatives of Ulster present, will feel that we have not in any way attempted to carry into this Bill any question to which particular objection can be taken by any section of Protestant opinion in Ulster or any other part of Ireland.

MR. SEXTON

I only wish to add my deliberate opinion that any arrangement which may be made which does not result in the admission of the voluntary schools will render this Act, so far as compulsion is concerned, a dead letter.

MR. BARTON

I admit that the statement of the First Lord of the Treasury has done good, to my mind, and while recognising that my right hon. Friend has made a statement which it would be disrespectful not to accept, I regret myself that any relaxation was made.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 2.

*MR. SYDNEY GEDGE

In reference to this clause I would point out that if no school suitable for the education of children exist in a neighbourhood, it is only necessary to make representations to the Education Department, and a School Board district can be formed. It seems to me these words are really unnecessary. If you say that no employer shall compel a child to attend a school to which the parent objects, the meaning is that an employer can compel a child to attend school if the parent does not object. That, however, is not the case. An employer cannot, either under the Factory Act or under this Bill, compel a child to attend school. I consider the words are unnecessary and inconsistent with the rest of the Bill.

Amendment proposed, In page 2, lines 18 and 19, to leave out after "1891," the words "but no employer shall compel a child to attend a school to which its parent objects on religious grounds."—(Mr. Sydney Gedge.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. MADDEN,) Dublin University

The words proposed to be left out were yesterday suggested from the opposite side of the House, and they met with very general support. I do not myself apprehend the disastrous consequences which my hon. Friend assumes. I submit to the Committee that the Amendment should not be accepted.

MR. MACARTNEY

Yesterday I opposed the insertion of these words, and I venture to suggest to the Committee that neither the Government nor the Front Opposition Bench knew exactly what the positions of the employers and half-timers were under the Factory Act and under this Bill. My advice was not taken, and I discovered almost immediately after the decision that the view I took that Irish employers were guilty of no action peculiar to themselves was perfectly correct. They have done precisely what is being done in England, and in Scotland, at the present moment, and has been done for some years—that is, they make it a condition of the employment of children as half-timers that they shall go to a particular school. That is all that has been done in Ulster, and that is what is going on at the present moment in England. The hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Picton) put a question to the Vice President of the Council for Education (Sir William Hart Dyke) to the following effect:— Whether he is aware that in the town and district of Rochdale, when children are taken from a Board School for employment as half-timers, it is frequently the practice of their employers to insist that the children should be taken from the school preferred by the parents and sent to some other school selected by the employer, and most commonly of a denominational character; and whether parents who send their children into employment as half-timers thereby lose the right to the free choice of a school; and, if not, whether he can take any means to prevent the inaction of this right in Rochdale and the neighbourhood? The Vice President replied— So far as I am aware, no complaint of the kind suggested has reached the Department, and I do not know of any practice in the matter calling for interference. It is obvious that a parent's right to select a school cannot be affected by the fact that a child attends as a half-timer, but it may be the case that a school is sometimes maintained in connection with a factory in which a child is at work, and the child is expected to attend that school as a matter of convenience. What the Vice President said with regard to England is precisely the operation of the law in Ireland. Nor are there any means in Ireland more than in England which can deprive the parent of the right to select a school for the education of his child. What happens is this—that in Ireland, as in England, the employer says: "If your child is to be employed in my factory or mill as a half-timer, then I make it a condition of employment that he or she should go to a certain school"; and this is not only for the convenience of the child, but also for the benefit of its education. It is convenient that the children who are half-timers in a particular factory should go to the half-time school, where every arrangement is made for their convenience and for the benefit of their education. What did the Committee do yesterday? While permitting in England a system which enables the employers to make it a condition of employment that the child should go to a particular school, you decided to penalise the Irish employer if he should observe that procedure. I think the Committee were in a great hurry, and that the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland is taking a very light view of the effect of the clause. Either it has no effect, and so is absolutely unnecessary, or else it will have some effect upon the employer in Ulster and in other parts of Ireland and does make this a condition of the employment of half-timers. If that is so, it is an unjust interference with the conditions an employer ought to be able to impose, and the words, therefore, ought not to be introduced into the clause. I hope the Committee will accept the Amendment.

MR. SEXTON

No doubt the Committee were in a hurry at half-past five, but at the hour at which these words were adopted they were not in a hurry. The question was debated at leisure by the hon. Member and others, and the Committee, after hearing all that was said on both sides by Gentlemen who were under no obligation to consult their sentiments, divided upon the question, and in the Division 106 Members of all parties voted for the insertion of the words, and ten Members voted against it. Of the ten Members, we have learned that four got into the wrong Lobby. Therefore, it really was a Division of 110 against six. That having been the state of opinion in the House of Commons, after the simple question had been clearly explained, it argues hardihood on the part of the hon. Gentleman to raise the question again to-day. The abstract reasoning of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Gedge) has little to do with the case. The hon. Member is a fine example of the Englishman who knows more about Ireland than the men who have lived there all their life. He considers his abstract reasoning is superior to their knowledge of the actual conditions of life; but I submit that knowledge of the actual conditions of life is more important than the abstract reasoning of the hon. Member for Stockport. I endorse what I said yesterday, upon the authority of a gentleman who was formerly President of the National Teachers' Association, and upon the authority of a gentleman responsibly connected with education, that in many parts of Ulster the employers do compel Catholic children in their employment on pain of dismissal to go to a school taught by Protestant teachers, although there is a Catholic school taught by a teacher available. I call that an outrage on fair play; I call it an unjustifiable assault on conscience; I call it tyranny. The hon. Member yesterday challenged me to give particulars. I did not wish to give the names, nor will I now. But since yesterday I have had telegrams assuring me upon the authority of well-known gentlemen that there is an important firm in Belfast which deducts school fees from the wages of children who attend the Catholic school. If a child, Catholic or Protestant, attends the Protestant school there is no deduction of school fees; and further, the firm pays the Protestant teacher £30 per year, and the Catholic teacher nothing. That is the sort of thing going on. I do not refer to Belfast employers. The words I proposed embrace employers all over Ireland, whether Protestant or Catholic; and if I were a Magistrate, and a Catholic employer were brought before me for compelling a Protestant child to go to a Catholic school or deducting school fees from it because it went to a Protestant school, nobody would be more ready than I would to inflict a penalty. All I ask for is fair play and no allowance of tyranny by any man, whether Catholic or Protestant. I hope hon. Members will not delay the House much longer on a subject which provoked, I think, the most overwhelming Division I have known in my time.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

Clause 5.

MR. MADDEN

I move to leave out the word "wilfully," in line 21. If the word remained in it would be necessary to prove that the employer wilfully employed a child which was under age. If the word were omitted no employer would then take in his employ a child under age.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 21, after the word "fact," to leave out the word "wilfully."—(Mr. Madden.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6.

MR. MADDEN

I beg to move, in line 7, to insert the word "and" after "metropolis."

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7 to 12, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 13.

On Motion of Mr. MADDEN, the following Amendment was agreed to:— Page 6, line 30, after the word "the," insert "third.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to.

Schedule.

MR. SEXTON

According to the first provision of the Schedule, the grant is to be applied in augmenting by twenty per cent. the existing rate of salaries of class teachers and of salaries of assistant teachers, and by three shillings and sixpence the capitation grant to schools receiving such grants and not having teachers paid by class salaries. Now, this augmented capitation grant is the amount to be paid chiefly to convent school teachers in order to render their treatment equivalent to that which the ordinary national teachers receive by the addition of twenty per cent. to their salaries. I am sensible that it would be very difficult to urge a case for a larger grant to the convent schools out of this particular sum of £210,000 a year; but I desire to most seriously represent to the right hon. Gentleman the unequal position of the convent schools of Ireland in comparison with the national schools. By the most conclusive test, that of inspection and examination, these convent schools are acknowledged to be the most efficient schools in Ireland. I lately cited some figures from the last annual Report of the Commissioners, which showed that the percentage of results in the convent infant schools was three per cent. better than that of the national schools, and that in the higher class the percentages were correspondingly better, until in the highest classes the percentage was sixteen per cent. better than in the other schools. The teachers in the convent schools are not classified, and they are therefore paid by a capitation grant which is for ordinary merit ten shillings per head per annum, and for special merit twelve shillings, the result being that their salaries are forty-five per cent. lower than the corresponding salaries paid to the national school teachers for work that is not so good. Now, Sir, by this Schedule you increase by twenty per cent. the existing rate of class salaries of teachers and of the salaries of assistant teachers, and you give an increase of the capitation grant, which I admit is slightly larger than that given by salaries. How does the case now stand? As I have said, the existing capitation giant for the convent schools is forty-five per cent. less than the present salaries of the national teachers, and therefore, in order to put the teachers in the convent schools on an equal footing with those in the national schools, you have first to increase the existing grant by forty-five per cent. and then to increase that by twenty per cent. I think the right hon. Gentleman will admit that I have put the case fairly and accurately as to facts, and I trust he will take care, although this matter may in his judgment be outside the purview of the Bill, that it does not escape the attention of the Education Board.

(5.38.) MR. CONWAY (Leitrim, N.)

I should like to say a word on behalf of the national teachers in Ireland. We who support them, not as against the Sisters or Brothers, but as the servants of the people, are placed in an invidious position by the arguments of the hon. Member. The hon. Member ought to recognise that the convent schools have the choice of children. For the most part their scholars are children belonging to the superior class of artisans and shopkeepers, and their attendance at school is regular; whereas the national schools have difficulties of climate, of poverty, and of the distances of the homes of the children from school. They are also handicapped in the matter of having to be trained and to have some experience before they get their certificates. These difficulties have been recognised by the hon. Member in the past. I have heard him in this House descant upon the work of these national teachers, and compare them favourably with any body of teachers in the British Empire. But to-day he takes up the cause of the Sisters against them. I feel on somewhat delicate ground in referring to these Sisters; but let me say at once that I respect both them and their work. These Sisters, however, are simply acting teachers. They go through no course of training, but as teachers they have splendid opportunities for earning handsome grants. Then they live in communities; they do not live in the world. But the teachers belonging to the national schools live in the world, and encounter pecuniary difficulties unknown to the Sisters; and until the Sisters are placed on an equality with the national teachers as regards certificates and some other matters, I am not prepared to agree with the hon. Member for West Belfast on the question of their pay, although I am told by the hon. Member for North Longford (Mr. Timothy Healy) that my seat has been provided for, and that I shall not again have the opportunity of standing up for the national teachers in this House. If, however, this House does not afford me that opportunity, there are other means one can utilise; and I shall, whenever this matter is debated, take up my stand on behalf of the national teachers, and if comparisons have to be instituted I shall undertake to prove that the services of these teachers deserve more than the recognition accorded them in this Schedule I deprecate the tone which has been imported into this Debate by the hon. Member for West Belfast. We hoped to have passed this Bill without any burning question being raised with regard to Sisters or lay teachers, with regard to monks or national male teachers. I would almost say it is unworthy of the hon. Member to raise these distinctions, and to thereby excite a considerable amount of ill-feeling in Ireland.

MR. SEXTON

I think, Sir, my action in this House has shown whether or not I respect the national teachers. I am not against them, as the hon. Member seems to imply. I shall be happy to assist them to obtain further benefits, and I do not admit that any argument I have advanced in the interest of other schools prejudices in any degree the provision as to national teachers. The course of progress on this Bill has shown where the friends of the national teachers are. I think I may claim that by my exertions yesterday I saved this Bill; and I think I have shown for many years that I am one of the foremost, and perhaps one of the most judicious, friends of the national teachers in this House.

MR. JACKSON

No doubt the examination of the convent schools shows a satisfactory state of things; but it must be borne in mind, in justice to the other schools with which a comparison has been made, that the convent schools have the advantage of more regular and continuous attendance on the part of their scholars. That unquestionably makes a great deal of difference with regard to the results. It should also be recollected that the convent schools may come under the classification if they like, and claim all the advantages given to the national schools. I think the tendency ought to be in that direction. As far as I understand, the hon. Member for West Belfast does not propose to move any Amendment, because he admits that, as regards this money with which we are now dealing, we have given as fair a proportion to the convent schools as to the others.

(5.45.) MR. SEXTON

The Amendment I now have to propose relates to that part of the Schedule which fixes the length of service entitling an assis- tant teacher to a bonus. It is proposed that no assistant teacher of less than seven years' service shall be entitled to any bonus. Sir, this is not a question of service; it is a question of sharp necessity and mere subsistence. The assistant teacher in Ireland, although he may by hard study have passed his examination and reached the highest class, only receives the salary of the third class, and his whole average income is not more than £1 a week; while the female teacher in the same position only receives sixteen shillings a week. The right hon. Gentleman may think that these low salaries will have the effect of inducing them to become principals, but I would point out that there must always be a large number of assistant teachers in Ireland. I would press upon the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of not insisting upon this seven years' service as the qualification of the bonus of £9 to each male and £7 10s. to each female, because the effect of that will be to shut out from its benefits a large number of teachers. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept my Amendment, because it involves a sum so trifling in comparison to the satisfaction which it would give to this humble but important body of public servants.

Amendment proposed, in page 7, line 23, to leave out the word "seven," and insert the word "three."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Schedule."

MR. JACKSON

I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment of the hon. Member. In addition to this bonus of £9 to each male teacher and £7 10s. to each female teacher, there is the additional salary of twenty per cent. to be paid under the first paragraph of this Schedule, and therefore the total increase is £16 10s. to the male teacher, and about £12 10s. to the female teacher. It is not necessary I should again go over the ground, and I do not think it is desirable to stereotype or encourage teachers to remain as assistant teachers. I think we should make such a difference between the salaries of the principal teachers and the assistant teachers as will induce the latter to do their best to qualify themselves as principals. I would point out that the addition we propose to make to the salary of the assistant teachers is considerable, considering their number. When I received a deputation of assistant teachers some time ago in Dublin they pressed upon me strongly that there should be some improvement made in their salaries. Well, I went carefully into the matter, and I came to the conclusion that some increase should be given them; but, as I have said, I do not want to remove any inducement that might urge them to qualify themselves as principal teachers, and we think seven years is not an unreasonable period to entitle them to receive the bonus, bearing in mind that these assistant teachers when they enter the service are young men. But I am really very anxious to give satisfaction to this class of teachers, and therefore I will agree to five years instead of seven. I think the hon. Member will consider that a reasonable concession.

MR. SEXTON

I recognise the reasonableness of the concession made by the right hon. Gentleman, and I am happy to agree to it.

MR. CONWAY

If the right hon. Gentleman can see his way, having fixed five years for the present assistant teachers, to reduce the time to three years for future assistant teachers, I think it would be of great advantage. A large number of men and women are now being trained yearly, and as they come into the market the difficulty of assistant teachers becoming principals is naturally increased.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

There are three thousand assistant teachers in Ireland, and only 176 of that number have reached the first class. These men and women suffer in a very peculiar sense in the matter of pay, and I will therefore propose that a bonus of £18 be given to each male assistant teacher and a bonus of £15 to each female assistant teacher of five years' standing in any class higher than the second class. Considering the small sum that would be required to make this concession, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to make it.

Amendment proposed, In page 7, line 24, at end, add the words, "And a bonus of eighteen pounds to each male, and fifteen pounds to each female, assistant teacher of three years' standing who is classed higher than the second class."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. JACKSON

I am sorry I cannot accept the Amendment now proposed by the hon. Gentleman. The concession I have made will benefit all those in the first class, and I think, too, that it will be found on examination that assistant teachers in the first class are only a short time before they become principals. It will be complicating matters very much to separate the different classes. The cost would not be great; but, at the same time, I think there is not sufficient justification for it, and I hope the hon. Member will not press it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. SEXTON

I have already pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that there are cases in which the limit of the capitation grant to ten shillings will work great hardships. Although, generally speaking, the capitation grant should be sufficient to compensate for the loss of the school fees, yet there are cases when, owing to the good attendance at the school and the rate of fee paid, the teacher will lose money, even allowing for the increase of his salary under this Bill. I am afraid, therefore, that a large number of teachers will suffer injury, and I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should allow school managers the option of receiving the capitation grant in lieu of school fees.

COLONEL NOLAN

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take care that education should be really free over the whole of the country, and that there should be no collection of fees.

MR. FOLEY (Galway, Connemara)

I certainly think the right hon. Gentleman might make some concession in this matter.

MR. JACKSON

I recognise that the hon. Member (Mr. Sexton) does not press this very strongly; but, on looking at this matter, there are two considerations which ought to be borne in mind. But first let me say that I have had a careful examination made, and I think it would be very difficult to prove that, in any case, the teachers would absolutely lose. It has been asserted that such is the fact, on the assumption, which I think is a very large assumption, that all the children who attend school pay. But in this Bill the payment would be given on the average attendance, and thus, so far as the teacher is concerned, there would be no bad debts. At present it cannot be doubted that all the children do not pay, and allowances are very properly made in some cases. Under the Bill the teachers will get paid for every time a child attends. There is another consideration also by which the teachers will benefit, and that is from the increased average attendance at school. I am confident that the passing of this Bill, and application of compulsion and the freeing of the schools from fees, will increase the number of children in the schools, and that will materially tend to benefit the teachers. Taking all these considerations into account, it may be stated with great confidence that not only will no teacher suffer, but all the teachers will largely gain.

Sechedule, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause—

Page 2, leave out Clause 3, and insert the following clause:—

(School Attendance Committee.)

1. "(1.) In every place to which this section applies there shall be a School Attendance Committee consisting of six, eight, or ten persons, as the Local Authority of the place may determine, one-half of whom shall be appointed by the Local Authority and the remainder by the Commissioners, and one-half of whom shall, where practicable, be school managers, patrons, or trustees, and the Local Authority shall make regulations subject to the approval of the Commissioners as to the time and mode of appointment of the Committee, the term for which members of the Committee shall hold office, and the conduct of their proceedings.
2. (2.) The Local Authority of any place may for the purposes of this Act divide the place into districts, and in such case a School Attendance Committee shall be appointed for each district in manner hereinbefore provided.
3. (3.) The School Attendance Committee, with the approval of the Local Authority, may appoint and remove officers, fix their remuneration, and prescribe their duties.
1318
4. (4.) In the event of the Local Authority failing to exercise any power, or perform any duty conferred or imposed on them by the preceding part of this section, the same may be exercised or performed by the Commissioners.
5. (5.) The expenses of a School Attendance Committee, and the salaries and expenses of their officers, shall be defrayed by the Local Authority out of the local rate,"—(Mr. Jackson,)

—brought up, and read a first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

(6.5.) MR. SEXTON

This is a new clause, which relates to matter which we have not before discussed, and I think it requires very careful revision. The original proposal was that the Local Authorities should appoint the School Attendance Committees; but according to this clause one-half are to be appointed by the Local Authorities and the other half by the Education Commissioners. I think it is desirable that one-half of the Committees should be persons connected with the management of schools, and having some experience and taking some interest in the matter. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that that is desirable.

Motion agreed to.

Clause read a second time.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, after the word "one," to insert the words "not less than."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

In the same line occur the words "where practicable." There are plenty of school managers in Ireland, and I think it is desirable that these words should be omitted, so that there may be no excuse for leaving them out.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out the words "where practicable."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. JACKSON

These words were put in because we were a little uncertain whether in some districts there might be so many persons available. For instance, suppose in some district where a Committee of ten was formed it was impossible to find five persons available as school managers, what would happen? I think the words do no harm, and they might be useful in preventing a deadlock under circumstances to which I have referred. They may afford some protection in the case of small districts.

MR. SEXTON

Suppose, then, you say "where such persons are in the district."

MR. MADDEN

"Where such persons are available."

MR. SEXTON

Yes, that will meet the point.

Amendment amended, and agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

These patrons and trustees who are mentioned in this sub-section may be people who do not live in the district or even in the country. There is no security that they would attend to the work of the Committee, and I would suggest, instead of the words used, the words "managers of schools in the place."

Amendment proposed, In lines 5 and 6, leave out "school managers, patrons, or trustees," and insert "managers of schools in the place."—(Mr. Sexton)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. MACARTNEY

The patrons, as a rule, are energetic in their attention to the details of educational subjects, and many of them take a great interest in the management of schools. Much the same can be said of trustees. I have no doubt where a patron or trustee did not interest himself largely in the question of education he would not care to take part in the work of the School Attendance Committee. But I cannot conceive any legitimate reason why a patron, who is interested in the subject and attends to the management of a school on his estate, should be deprived of the right to sit on the Committee.

(6.12.) MR. JACKSON

These words were put in because it was felt that in restricting the Committee to school managers there might be too severe a limitation. I would point out, however, that if the words were struck out it would not prevent such persons being appointed.

MR. SEXTON

Suppose we leave out trustees.

MR. JACKSON

Very well. Then the Amendment will read "managers or patrons of schools in that place."

Amendment amended, and agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

With respect to the remainder of this sub-section, I have an objection which I think the right hon. Gentleman will share. It is proposed that the Local Authority shall make rules and regulations such as are left to no other Local Body in Ireland. I think there ought to be a Schedule which should state what number of the Committee forms a quorum, and what is the length of the term of office. It is obvious that Parliament could not properly delegate questions of this kind to a Local Authority. It would certainly be much more convenient to settle the matter now.

MR. MADDEN

I understand that the hon. Gentleman desires to have those matters settled by Parliament.

MR. SEXTON

That is what I want.

MR. MADDEN

Probably a better course would be that the Local Authority "shall make regulations subject to the Commissioners of Education," and the term for which they are appointed and the number to form a quorum can be stated in the Schedule.

MR. SEXTON

What term does the right hon. Gentleman propose?

MR. MADDEN

Three years.

MR. SEXTON

For both classes of Commissioners?

MR. MADDEN

Yes.

Amendment proposed, Leave out from "and," in line 6, and insert "the term for which members of the Committee shall hold office and the quorum of the Committee shall be as prescribed in the 4th Schedule of the Act."—(Mr. Madden.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

In Sub-section 2 it is provided that the Local Authority may divide a place into districts. I think that is a very undesirable power to entrust solely to a Local Authority, and it might be used in a very im- proper way. I would suggest that it should be exercised under the supervision of the Education Commissioners after public inquiry.

Amendment proposed, In line 10, after "(2)," insert "subject to the approval of the Commissioners after public inquiry."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

The third sub-section provides that the Committees may appoint officers and remove them, and fix their remuneration with the consent of the Local Authorities. It would be undesirable to make the School Attendance Committees too entirely dependent on the Local Authorities, and it would not do to trouble the Local Authorities too much with details. It is reasonable that the Local Authorities who raise the money should have to do with the salaries, but I think the Committees might be trusted to appoint and remove teachers without supervision.

Amendment proposed, After "Committee," in line 14, to insert "may appoint and remove officers and prescribe their duties, and with the approval of the Local Authorities fix their remuneration."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

(6.25.) MR. SEXTON

As the section now stands, I should like to move some words which will give protection to the feelings of the different religious denominations. I think it is very necessary that some provision of this kind should be inserted. I do this in the interests of the Protestant minority in the South as well as of the Catholic minority in the North.

Amendment proposed, At the end of the words which have just been inserted, to add "Provided that where such appointment is made the Commissioners, having regard to the number of each religious denomination in any place or district, may direct that there shall be at least one Protestant and one Catholic officer for such place or district."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. JACKSON

I think we might have left this question to the School Attendance Committee. Of course I have no objection to the appointment of either Catholics or Protestants, but I feel some doubt about the advisability of specifying it in the Act. Is it desirable in this one instance to raise the question of denominationalism? If we left this matter to the Committees they would in all probability make the appointments as the hon. Member desires; but I feel that there is some difficulty in introducing the words into an Act of Parliament.

MR. SEXTON

I shall be satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman will introduce words to the effect that the Committees shall have regard to the numbers of the religious denominations in the place.

MR. MACARTNEY

The Committees would certainly have regard to the numbers of the religious denominations, but I think it is most undesirable to introduce this question in the Bill. The religious element is now introduced for the first time, and I do not believe it will tend in the slightest degree either to facilitate the proceedings of the Committees or to assist them with regard to the appointments. I hope the hon. Member will not press the question, because on grounds of public policy it would be inexpedient to introduce matter of this kind into the Bill.

MR. KNOX (Cavan, W.)

I would point out that there is a difference between the North and South of Ireland in this matter. The Catholics in the South will have a majority on the Committee in almost every case; but it is quite the other way in Belfast, where the representation of the Catholics among the school attendance officers would be the same as that among the public officials—none at all. I think there should be in the clause some indication of the intention of Parliament.

MR. JACKSON

I hope the hon. Member will not press the Amendment, as I think it would lead to mischief rather than anything else.

MR. SEXTON

People who are entitled to speak assure me that some such provision is necessary, and I think Parliament should in some mode suggest that the denomination should be considered. I cannot forget the case of Belfast, where the Town Council has not appointed a Roman Catholic official for years, and the Local Authority is to appoint half the School Attendance Committee, and there is great danger that there will not be a single Roman Catholic officer. I cannot say that I feel sufficient confidence in the Committee to leave it to them. I really feel grave and serious apprehension as to the working of the Act in Belfast and other places, particularly in the North of Ireland. If penalties are secured against Roman Catholic children by Protestant officers, who also look after the Protestant children, a feeling would be generated which would not conduce to the smooth working of the Act.

MR. MACARTNEY

These officers cannot take any action without the authority of the School Attendance Committee. If the hon. Gentleman's argument is worth anything, we must go back on the Bill, and introduce directions that the Committee shall be appointed on the basis of religious belief, and nothing else.

MR. SEXTON

We can trust the Commissioners to act fairly with respect to the School Attendance Committee.

MR. MACARTNEY

Then why not trust the Committee to do their duty also?

MR. KNOX

There may be a fair representation of the minority on the Committee, but they may be out-voted on the question of the appointment of the officers, and no action can be taken by the Department to prevent the minority being out-voted in the matter. I think some indication of the intention of Parliament should be given.

COLONEL NOLAN

I do not apprehend any difficulty in the country districts under this head, but in Belfast I think there might be. There the Local Authority appoints half the Committee, and the Catholics would have little representation on it. Perhaps the Attorney General will consider the matter with a view to its alteration in another place.

MR. JACKSON

I will consider it, but I feel that it is a matter of great difficulty.

MR. SEXTON

I cannot consent to withdraw the Amendment, as a principle is concerned, but I cannot hope to carry it.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. MACARTNEY

The Commissioners have power to carry out any duty which the Local Authority fail to perform, and I think it desirable that they should have the same power with regard to the School Attendance Committee. I, therefore, propose to insert after "Local Authority," in line 17, the words "or School Attendance Committee."

Amendment proposed, in line 17, after the word "Authority," to insert the words "or School Attendance Committee."—(Mr. Macartney.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. SEXTON

This would be a serious matter, and would greatly embarrass the working of the Act. If the Committee were wholly appointed by the Local Authority there might be some ground for the provision, but half the Committee is to be appointed by the Commissioners. The quorum may be fixed, and no doubt is, so that the Commissioners' nominees will always be sufficiently numerous to form a quorum, and so you have security that nothing prejudicial shall be done. I think, on the whole, the wiser course would be to leave the School Attendance Committee a free hand within the limits of the Bill.

MR. JACKSON

I think my hon. Friend will see that the appointment of half the Committee by the Education Commissioners does alter considerably the necessity for the control originally in the Bill. He will see that half the Committee is appointed by the Commissioners, and that half the Members must be present to form a quorum; so that if half the members appointed by the Local Authority absent themselves, the members appointed by the Commissioners would be a quorum. I think we may take it that the Committee would discharge its duties properly; and having provided for the failure in duty on the part of the Local Authority, I think we have sufficient control of the Committee.

MR. MACARTNEY

If my right hon. Friend is satisfied with the clause as it stands, I do not wish to press the Amendment; but I think there should be some provision for a case which I hope may not arise.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. SEXTON

I wish to secure that the Board shall not come down on the Local Authority like a thief in the night, but that the latter may have some notice of their action. I suppose it is not intended that the Board should suddenly discharge some duty which the Local Authority may have unintentionally omitted to perform.

Amendment proposed, in line 17, after the word "authority," to insert the words "after warning or reasonable notice."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Question put, and agreed to.

COLONEL NOLAN

I beg to move before "expenses," in line 21, to insert "half of." We have given so much power to the Government and the Commissioners that I think if half the expenses come on the local rate that would be ample, and that the rest should be found by the Government. That is done in the case of Poor Law officers, doctors, and sanitary officers, and the system works well because the Local Authority keeps down the expenses. The rate is a new one, and will in some cases be felt severely, and it is only fair that the Imperial Exchequer should bear half the expenses.

Amendment proposed, In line 21, before "expenses," to insert "half of."—(Colonel Nolan.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. JACKSON

I am sorry I cannot meet the hon. and gallant Gentleman's desire, as I think it would be most likely to lead to extravagance on the part of the Local Authority.

COLONEL NOLAN

I must say I feel the point very deeply, and it is a flaw in the Bill, and I protest against this part of the Bill as strongly as I can. You are putting on a new rate without any request from the locality, and if the Commissioners are kept in order by the Chief Secretary they will be able to resist any increase of expenditure. There is no fear of the expenses being run up if the local rate bears only half. I must press the point as strongly as I can, but I do not think we are strong enough to go to a Division.

MR. SEXTON

I should be glad if the Government could see their way to accept the Amendment, but I join with my hon. and gallant Friend in recognising that it would be useless to go to a Division.

MR. CONWAY

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the point between this and Report?

Question put, and negatived.

On Motion of Mr. SEXTON, the following Amendment was agreed to:— At the end of the Clause to add the words "but any revenue from penalties under this Act in any district shall be applied in relief of local rates."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the New Clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."

COLONEL NOLAN

I protest against this new rate. We have not got our share of the Education Grant, and if I am a Member of the next Parliament, I shall feel myself at liberty to press that point. Irish Members have resisted the rate as much as they can, and it must not be said that we are consenting parties to it.

MR. SEXTON

I protested against it as strongly as I could on the Second Reading.

Question put, and agreed to.

New Clause—

Page 6, after Clause 13, insert the following Clause:—

(Power to acquire land for school-house or teacher's residence)

1. "(1.) If the Commissioners are satisfied, by persons desirous of establishing or improving a national school, that a site is required for the school or for the residence of a teacher of the school, and cannot be obtained except under the powers conferred by this section, and if security to the satisfaction of the Commissioners is given to them for the probable amount of the purchase-money, and the costs of carrying this section into effect, they may authorise persons approved of by them as trustees to purchase a site for such school or residence to be held by the trustees on trust for the purposes of such school or residence.
2. (2.) For the purpose of the purchase of land in pursuance of this section, section two hundred and three of 'The Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878,' shall apply as if it were herein re-enacted, and in terms made applic- 1327 able to such trustees instead of to the sanitary authority, and section two hundred and fourteen of the same Act shall apply to Provisional Orders made for the purposes of this section.

Provided as follows:—

1. (a.) References in the said section two hundred and three to a newspaper circulating in the district of the sanitary authority shall be construed as references to a newspaper circulating in the Poor Law Union where the land proposed to be taken is situate;
2. (b.) If a memorial is presented to the Local Government Board within one month after the making of a Provisional Order by owner, lessee, or occupier of lands proposed to be taken compulsorily, stating that the memorialist requires that such Order shall not be acted upon until it is confirmed by Parliament, then the Order shall be of no force unless and until it is confirmed by Parliament; but if no such memorial is presented, then the Order shall come into force at the expiration of one month from the making thereof;
3. (c.) The Order may contain such provisions as the Local Government Board may deem necessary for securing that, in case the said trustees acquire land as a site for a school or residence under this Act, otherwise than by agreement, the school or residence shall be built to the satisfaction of the Commissioners, and shall be properly maintained, and be at all times conducted as a national school or used for the residence of a teacher of a national school, under the regulations of the Commissioners for the time being in force; and for providing for the appointment of new trustees from time to time; and, generally, for all such matter and things as the Commissioners may think expedient,"—(Mr. Jackson,)

—brought up, and read a first and second time.

MR. SEXTON

There are 8,000 principal teachers, and only 2,000 of them have residences; the remainder live in huts and hovels unfit for anybody giving instruction to live in. They have also frequently to travel many miles in all weathers. We want, as far as possible, to provide residences for teachers of existing schools. The Bill says— If the Commissioners are satisfied, by persons desirous of establishing or improving a national school. These schools are established already, and may not require to be improved, and you put in a condition which makes the clause nugatory with regard to them. I move to leave out the words having that effect.

Amendment proposed, Line 1, to leave out the words "by persons desirous of establishing or improving a national school."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, line 1, to leave out "the," and insert the words "a national."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, line 3, to leave out the second "the," and insert the words "a national."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

The clause provides that, unless the Commissioners are satisfied that the land cannot be obtained under the present law, they are not to allow the new law to be exercised. That would put a weapon in the hands of an occupier who wished to reduce the clause to a nullity. He might ask for one hundred years' purchase, and it could not then be said that the land could not be obtained under the present law. The process must be made as easy and the force as certain as possible. I would suggest that in line 4, after "obtained," the words "on fair terms," or similar words, be inserted.

MR. MADDEN

I think the words "on reasonable terms" would meet the case.

Amendment proposed, in line 4 after "obtained," to insert "on reasonable terms."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

COLONEL NOLAN

In line 9, after "residence," I should like to put in— And the site for a residence may include such an amount of land as the Commissioners may think suitable for a garden, a small tillage field, or grass for a cow. I know nothing more melancholy in country places than to see a house put down without any ground round it. You cannot make the teacher comfortable unless you give him one or two acres of land, and it would be a great convenience if grass for a cow could be given the teacher if he were married, as I suppose he would be in many cases. I merely wish that the words "site of residence" should be qualified in some manner by providing that the Commissioners should be allowed to include a suitable amount of land for the residence. I hope the right hon. Gentleman may see his way to accept that.

Amendment proposed, In line 9, after "residence," to insert "The site of a residence may include such an amount of land as the Commissioners may think suitable for a garden, a small tillage field, and the grass for a cow.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. JACKSON

I think we have heard already in this House of "three acres and a cow." But in a clause of this description, which was really assented to only for the purpose of dealing with extreme cases, and admittedly cases occurring here and there, where a site was unreasonably refused, I do not think we could give compulsory power for taking "the grass for a cow."

COLONEL NOLAN

I am quite willing to sacrifice the cow if necessary. I would be quite willing to adopt the words suggested by the hon. Member for Hackney and stop at the word "suitable," and allow the amount of land which the Commissioners may think suitable to be taken. But what do you mean by a "site"? What you mean by a site for a residence ought, I think, to be defined. It certainly ought to include a garden, which should not be less than an Irish acre—you may say a statute acre if you like; but I think this is of great importance. I do not think it would be worth while giving any residences to the teachers unless they have a little bit of land. I do not want it to be too much, because I do not want their energies to be devoted to the land. But if they had gardens, having a great amount of spare time, they might very often teach a little agriculture to their scholars. The Chief Secretary sneers at a "cow." It is all very well sneering at this thing till it comes home before the electors; and I think they will perfectly understand it, if the Government refuse this very modest and humble provision of mine.

MR. SEXTON

In the corresponding clause in the Scotch Act the word "garden" is mentioned, and in England I think there is nothing to pre- vent Local Authorities attaching a small portion of land to a teacher's residence. What I wish to ask is whether the Commissioners would be bound under this clause not to attach such land as they thought proper for the residence of a teacher?

COLONEL NOLAN

I am always ready to take the view of the Chief Secretary on lay questions; but on questions of law I would prefer the view of the Attorney General for Ireland. Perhaps the Attorney General for Ireland would give us his opinion whether under the present clause the promoters would be able to take, with the sanction of the Commissioners, an acre or two of land to be attached to the teacher's residence.

MR. MADDEN

According to the words of this clause a certain amount of land would have to be taken compulsorily. This land would be what would be suitable for a site for a residence. That would not include land for agricultural purposes, but it would include whatever would be necessary or suitable for the convenient occupation of the house.

COLONEL NOLAN

Would that go as far as a garden?

MR. MADDEN

I do not like to bind myself to the amount. But it would go as far as what would be suitable for the enjoyment of the house. It would include the curtilage.

COLONEL NOLAN

Does curtilage include a garden?

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Derby)

It does include a garden. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not divide the Committee upon his Amendment.

COLONEL NOLAN

After the opinion of the Attorney General for Ireland that it includes a curtilage and what would be necessary for the convenient occupation of the house, and after the legal opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) that curtilage includes a garden, I think that is quite enough for my purpose.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. SEXTON

I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he thinks these words at the end of the clause relating to the cost necessary? I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) would call them very large and loose words. They would have the effect of frightening promoters from undertaking such schemes. I should be glad if these words were left out.

MR. MADDEN

I would really ask the hon. Gentleman not to interfere with these words. I cannot possibly agree to omit them.

MR. SEXTON

I wish to point out that in Clause 14 in the old printed Bill—I do not know what the number is in the new printed Bill—it is provided that the compulsory powers should not come into operation till the 1st January, 1894. I think it would be very desirable if it could be arranged that this clause relating to residences should come in where the restrictive effect of Clause 14 would not apply to it.

MR. JACKSON

I deem it my duty to call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that in the printed Bill which has been issued to-day, the date on which the Bill is to come into operation is the 1st January, 1893.

MR. SEXTON

It may be corrected.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

As I understand, a correction of that kind might be made elsewhere.

MR. JACKSON

It is an error in the printing.

THE CHAIRMAN

The "3" was altered by the Committee to "4." It must be an error of the printer.

MR. SEXTON

Which will be corrected, no doubt?

THE CHAIRMAN

Yes.

Amendment proposed, That this New Clause shall be recited after Clause 13, and subsequent to the provision that this Act shall not come into operation till 1st January, 1894.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to, and added to the Bill.

New Clause—

(Certificates of birth for purposes of Act.)

Where the age of any child is required to be ascertained or proved for the purposes of this Act, or for any purposes connected with the elementary education or employment in labour of such child, any person, on presenting a written requisition in such form and containing such particulars as may be from time to time prescribed by the Commissioners, and on payment of such fee, not exceeding sixpence, as the Commissioners from time to time fix, shall be entitled to obtain a certified copy, under the hand of the registrar or superintendent registrar, of the entry in the register under the Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland) Acts, 1863 to 1880, of the birth of the child named in the requisition,"—(Mr. Sexton,) —brought up, read a first and second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause—

(Authority to prosecute.)

No legal proceedings for non-attendance or irregular attendance at school shall be commenced in a court of summary jurisdiction by any person on behalf of a school attendance committee, except by the direction of not less than three members of the said committee,"—(Mr. Sexton,) —brought up, read a first and second time, and added to the Bill.

THE CHAIRMAN

The next clause which stands in the name of the hon. Member seems to be outside the purview of this Bill, as it deals with the Amendment of the law of reformatory schools.

MR. SEXTON

It may be outside the purview of the Bill, but my object is to provide that where a child is found wandering about not under parental control the School Attendance Committee might send it to a certified industrial school.

MR. JACKSON

That may be done already.

MR. SEXTON

Yes I know the police can at present take up a child found wandering in that way and have it sent to an industrial school; but I wish to have it provided that the School Attendance Committee should be invited to deal with such cases. I think that would be well within the object of the Bill.

MR. JACKSON

I am afraid I cannot accept this clause. The hon. Member wishes to set up some day industrial schools in Ireland similar to those in England. There are no such schools in Ireland. I venture to suggest that if there should be any necessity for such schools when the Act has come into operation, it will be easy by an Amendment in a year or two hence to provide for it. I would ask the hon. Member not to press the clause at present.

MR. SEXTON

I shall not press the clause at present. I wish to say, after full consideration of what has been said by the Bishops, and after the fullest inquiry on the subject, I am convinced that this scheme of compulsory education can never work well in Ireland until you make provision not only by industrial schools, but by day industrial schools, for the case of children in cities who have no parents, or who are not under the full control either of parents or anybody else.

New Clause—

(Return of registrars of births and deaths to school attendance committees.)

Every registrar of births and deaths, when and as required by a school attendance committee, shall transmit, by post or otherwise, a return of such of the particulars registered by him concerning deaths and births of children as may be specified in the requisition of the committee. The committee may supply a form, approved by the Commissioners, for the purpose of the return, and in that case the return shall be made in the form so supplied. The committee may pay, as part of their expenses under this Act, to the registrar making such return such fee as may be agreed upon between them and the registrar, not exceeding one penny for every birth and death entered in such return,"(Mr. Sexton,) —brought up, read a first and second time, and added to the Bill.

MR. JACKSON

I beg to move, in page 7, after line 11, to insert—

First Schedule.

(1.) The minimum number of attendances for the purposes of the first section of this Act shall be seventy-five complete attendances in each half year ending respectively the thirtieth day of June and the thirtieth day of December at any national or other efficient school.

Schedule brought up, and read a first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule be read a second time."

MR. SEXTON

The word "minimum," I think, should be omitted. There is no question of maximum or minimum. The only question is as to satisfying the law.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "minimum."

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SEXTON

Having regard to the calendar, I think the word "thirty" should be "thirty-one," as December, I believe, has thirty-one days.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "thirty," and insert the word "thirty-one."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, added to the Bill.

Second Schedule.

(2.) The certificate of proficiency for the purposes of this Act shall be a certificate of such proficiency in reading, writing, and elementary arithmetic as is now prescribed for the fourth class in the programme of instruction of the Commissioners, or such higher proficiency as may hereafter be prescribed by them."—(Mr. Jackson,) —brought up, and read a first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule be read a second time."

MR. SEXTON

I beg to move to insert, after Certificate," the words "issued by the principal teacher of the school which the child has last attended.

Amendment proposed, After the word "Certificate," to insert the words "issued by the principal teacher of the school which the child has last attended."—(Mr. Sexton.)

Amendment agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to, and added to the Bill.

Schedule 3 agreed to.

Fourth Schedule.

That the members of a school attendance committee shall continue in office for three years from the date of their appointment; the quorum of the committee shall be one-half of its total number,"—(Mr. Madden,) —brought up, and read a first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule be read a second time."

COLONEL NOLAN

Make it one-third.

MR. MADDEN

I cannot make it one-third.

COLONEL NOLAN

Look here, they never can be got together.

THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order!

COLONEL NOLAN

You will not get one-half to attend, but you may get one-third to attend. I know local business, and I daresay the Attorney General never considered the point. Out of sixty-four Poor Law Guardians you may get eight or ten to attend. The School Attendance Committee will not attend in such numbers.

MR. MADDEN

I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not press his objection. The hon. and gallant Member must remember that these are specialists, and will be brought together for special purposes.

MR. SEXTON

I should like to suggest that the quorum should be one-half the Committee, except where one-half is more than four, and then four should be the quorum. That would meet both views.

COLONEL NOLAN

Let three be the quorum for all the Committees.

MR. JACKSON

Agreed.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Fourth Schedule, to leave out "one-half," and insert "three."

Amendment agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, added to the Bill.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be reported to the House.

MR. JACKSON

I wish now to mention that there is one point in one of the clauses passed yesterday which is very likely to be raised in another place, as I am anxious that there should be no delay.

MR. SEXTON

Has the right hon. Gentleman any objection to specify it?

MR. JACKSON

It is on the question of exemption. The point is this: I accepted an Amendment from the hon. Member for West Belfast which enlarged the reasons for non-attendance. The hon. Member said that the provision was contained in the Scotch Act, but I find on reference to that Act that there is a limitation for a certain time of the year. I think it is six weeks in the year that are prescribed as the period during which a child might be exempt. I am afraid that it might be considered that if a boy were engaged in a fishery, for instance, for the whole year round, that that might be taken as a reasonable excuse; and I only venture to suggest that there may be some alteration made in that respect.

COLONEL NOLAN

Is it with regard to fisheries only?

MR. JACKSON

There is no limitation as to the object. It should not be supposed that a boy is to be excused by reason of his being engaged in the operations of any particular industry the whole year round.

MR. SEXTON

In assisting his parents?

MR. JACKSON

Of course.

COLONEL NOLAN

In England they only think of the harvest; but it must be remembered that in Ireland, in addition to the harvest, there is the period when a child may be engaged in the planting of potatoes in the month of March. There is that difference in the case of Ireland.

MR. SEXTON

I attach great importance to the clause, and I hope care will be taken as regards its amendment.

Motion agreed to.

Bill, as amended, considered; reported; read the third time, and passed.