CLASS V. (Hansard, 25 February 1892)

§ MR. MORTON (Peterborough)
I see in this Vote a sum of £5,000 for telegrams "consequent on the state of affairs in America and China." The only information we have on these matters is contained in the daily papers. No right hon. or hon. Gentleman has given us any information. I gather from the daily papers that there have been difficulties in China with regard to the missionaries, and that, no doubt, put the Government to extra expense. I am still in some difficulty with regard o America. An hon. Gentleman beside me says he does not know where America 1321 is. I am glad we adopted free education last year, for in the future people will get to know where America is. But, Sir, I have not been able to gather from the newspapers any information as to any extraordinary condition of affairs in America. I do not know whether the extra expenditure arises in connection with the election of the President. Three years ago we tried to interfere. Whether that is the way this money has been expended I cannot say. I trust we shall have information.

* THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith)
I hope to be able to satisfy the hon. Member by saying, shortly, as I said in the Debate on the Address, that with regard to China, Papers have been in an active state of preparation and will shortly be laid upon the Table. Considerable apprehension was excited during the autumn of last year in reference to the anti-foreign riots that took place in various parts of China. It became necessary to enter into telegraphic communication with Her Majesty's Representative at Pekin, which, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, is a considerable distance from London, and the cost of telegrams to Pekin and back is very considerable. With regard to America, the telegrams which have passed between Her Majesty's Government and Her Majesty's Representative at Washington were due to the protracted negotiations which have been in course of progress during the autumn with reference to Behring Sea America also comprises South America, and, as the hon. Member is probably aware, there was a revolution in Chili in the autumn, by which British interests were considerably affected and endangered, and it became necessary to communicate very frequently by telegram with Her Majesty's Representative in that country. Papers on that subject are being prepared, and I hope to lay them on the Table next week.

§ MR. MORTON
Can you say what proportion of this extra expenditure is applicable to Chili, and what is applicable to America?

MR. J. W. LOWTHER
I am afraid I cannot answer that question straight off.

§ MR. MORTON
I think the hon. Gentleman has made out my case, and I think I may appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury to have this Vote postponed. We ought to have the Blue Book promised by the hon. Gentleman before voting this money, and with regard to America we should have more information.

§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR
The Government have no desire to take any controversial Votes to-night, and I do not think this is a controversial Vote. The extra expenditure was owing to the telegrams rendered necessary by the peculiar state of things in America and China, and on the ordinary Estimates the hon. Gentleman will have ample opportunity of discussing the policy of the Government in these matters. The question of policy does not now arise. I hope the Vote may now be taken.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
Nobody admires more than I do the strenuous exertions in the interests of economy of my hon. Friend third behind me (Mr. Morton), but at the same time I think he is now going a little too far. There were difficulties in China, and whether Her Majesty's Government conducted the negotiations properly or not, telegrams had to be exchanged. There was a mistake about the Behring Sea dispute, and about that it was also necessary that telegrams should be exchanged. I should be sorry if by any premature vote my hon. Friend abridged our opportunities of going fully into these matters hereafter.

§ MR. MORTON
I do not object to my hon. Friend intervening. I do not object to these telegrams. I said I knew there were troubles in China; but I said that as a matter of principle we ought to have this information before voting this money. I move that Item E. be reduced by £200.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item E (Telegrams), be reduced by £200."—(Mr. Morton.)

§ MR. T. M. HEALY
I should like to know when the Chilian Papers will be produced. We do not condemn the action of Her Majesty's Consul there; but we have some observations to make with regard to some other Representative of Her Majesty's Government there. We are anxious to see the instructions given to Her Majesty's 1323 Minister. I think Her Majesty's Government acted very properly, but I should like to see the exact instructions they gave.

§ (11.40.) MR. D. CRAWFORD (Lanark, N.E.)
I quite agree with the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere). I do not think that an item for telegrams is a very suitable occasion for opposition on our part. We may think, and I suppose we do think, that the administration of these matters might be placed in other hands when the administration would better command the confidence of the country; but so long as the country leaves the present Government with power, I think it is unworthy of the Liberal Party to take a Division on this Vote of £5,000 for telegrams. I have perfect confidence that the right hon. Gentleman opposite has formed a just and proper decision as to the expenditure of such a sum as this. I do not think we ought to make this a subject for division; we have much more important subjects than this, upon which we shall have to join issue with the Government.

§ (11.41.) MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)
I do not agree with the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Crawford); I think this is an unprecedented—a monstrous —sum to ask for telegrams in a Supplementary Estimate. Look at the original sum asked for last year—£14,000—and here we are asked to vote £5,000 in addition without any explanation of the causes requiring this enormous expenditure. I think we might be told what portion of the expense is due to affairs in China, and what portion to America or to Chili. For my part, I confess I think if the Government had abstained from interference in Chilian affairs and had sent fewer telegrams there, it would have been better. I think that most of the troubles arose in Chili, if not from the interference of the British Government, yet from the attitude of British subjects there. That, however, is a matter of opinion. In the first place, I object to the Vote because it is too large; and, in the second place, we have not the information to justify us in voting so large a sum; and I think these Estimates are prepared in a way that seems to me disrespectful to the Com- 1324 mittee. We have not definite information. Part of the amount is debited to the negotiations in reference to the Behring Sea Fisheries, but it will be observed that the next item is one of £7,000 for the Behring Sea Commission, and I do not see why the cost for telegrams in this connection should not be charged to the expenses of that Commission. I should like also, before the Vote is passed, to have some assurance that we shall have, during the Session, an opportunity to discuss, with due information before us, the policy of the Government in reference to their interference in the affairs of Chili.

§ MR. A. J. BALFOUR
assented

§ (11.44.) DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)
Of course I fully recognise the argument of the hon. Member for North-East Lanark (Mr. Crawford), but, at the same time, I think hon. Members will recognise the fact that upon many of these apparently trivial items, even on such an item as this for telegrams, very great points of policy have frequently been threshed out in Committee of Supply. There can be no doubt, from the various remarks which have been made in the course of the last few minutes, that this question of telegrams does attach itself in an intimate degree with the state of affairs in Chili, in China, and other places. I do not wish to go into details upon these matters, but it strikes me as a matter of convenience and common-sense after having heard the speech of the hon. Gentleman who is new to his office as Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and we having also another neophyte in the position of Secretary to the Treasury, it does seem to me that these gentlemen are not really in a position to give us that full information to which we are entitled when dealing with these matters. I do not wish to raise any captious controversy, or put any foolish questions, but here is a large sum charged—large for the purpose—and it is our business to know how, and why, the money is spent. For this reason I support my hon. Friend (Mr. Morton). In a somewhat diffident way the Under Secretary has expressed himself, and we are promised Blue Books which, I think, ought to be in our hands when we are 1325 asked to vote this money. Under the circumstances, I do think that the First Lord of the Treasury, whose ability we recognise, would do well to postpone the Vote now, giving to his two neophytes the opportunity to make themselves acquainted with all the facts, and so we shall dispose of the Vote with full information before us.

§ (11.47.) Mr. WOOTTON ISAACSON (Tower Hamlets, Stepney)
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but the CHAIRMAN withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
Debate resumed.

§ (11.47.) MR. T. M. HEALY
Will the hon. Gentleman say when we shall have the Blue Books he has mentioned?

(11.47.) MR. J. W. LOWTHER
I cannot say definitely. I had hoped they would have been circulated before now. I will inquire, and will push forward the work as rapidly as possible.

§ (11.48.) MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)
When reference is made to Chili, we cannot but be aware of certain very suspicious circumstances in connection with British interests there, so that I certainly think we ought to have Papers on the subject. I do not wish to interpose any undue delay in the proceedings of the Committee, but somehow of late years a bad custom has grown up—a double-barrelled, bad custom. I might say, first of all, the ordinary Votes are taken so late that we have not time to discuss them, and then, on the other hand, when we approach these Votes early in the Session we are told discussion is premature. Are we premature in seeking a discussion on this the proper opportunity, and why should we wait until the autumn? As regards affairs in Chili, distinctly I am of opinion, and it is an opinion I think will be shared by all Members who are interested in the comity of nations, that we should have full information before we vote this large sum, part of which is due to negotiations arising out of suspicious circumstances in relation to the revolutionary movement in that country.

§ (11.49.) DR. CLARK (Caithness)
I would appeal to my hon. Friend to withdraw his Motion for the reduction of the Vote. I do not see 1326 that he has given sufficient ground for it. I am quite willing to debate the question as one of expenditure on telegrams; but as a matter of the policy of the Government in Chili or in China, we shall have better opportunity for discussion on the Foreign Office Vote, and on the Admiralty Vote will arise the question of the conveyance of specie. There is no question of policy indirectly arising on this Vote for telegrams that could not better be discussed on the Foreign Office Vote.

§ (11.49.) MR. MORTON
I trust that even now the Government will consent to postpone this Vote. Personally, I do not wish to take a Division. I do not oppose the item, for, indeed, I do not know the particulars, nor does any Member of the Committee. Possibly, the Government may feel stronger, being re-inforced by the assistance of the hon. Members for Northampton, North-East Lanark, and Caithness, but what they have said does not alter my opinion as to the facts of the case. There was one point particularly mentioned by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), who pointed out that while the total sum asked for last year was £14,000, we are now asked to vote a supplementary sum nearly a third of the original sum, and yet not the slightest information is given as to the expenditure of the money. We are told that in a day or two Blue Books will be laid on the Table, but, apparently, the Under Secretary cannot give us any information now. Well, then, there is a sufficient reason for postponing the Vote. I find it stated that part of the amount is consequent upon the state of affairs in America, and I am reminded that this may include South America, but our information does not say so. In answer to the question from myself the Under Secretary frankly owned he could not tell us how much of the money was spent in relation to Chili, and how much in relation to the United States. With this absence of information it is absurd to ask us to take the Vote tonight. I make no charge of improper expenditure, but, as a matter of principle, I say before we pass the Vote we are entitled to require information 1327 about it. I am sorry the Government do not see this. It can make no difference to them if the Vote is postponed for a day or two. If they had acquiesced in the suggestion they would have saved time, and by now we might have passed a number of other Votes. As it is, I do not see my way to withdraw my Motion for a reduction, although I should be sorry to take a Division. I should be much better pleased if the Government would consent to postpone the Vote until they could give us the required information. As I have said, this is a matter of principle, and I emphasise the point because it refers, perhaps, to hundreds of Votes on the Estimates. We are entitled to have the fullest possible information when we take the Votes, and not afterwards. It is ridiculous to ask for the Vote and say we shall have the information at some future time. Another point has been raised by the hon. Member who mentioned the Behring Sea Fisheries Commission; and, certainly, I think that if any of this expenditure is due to that account, it should be included in Item "M." I quite understand why this should be a separate item, but it does not represent the expenses of the Commission if the telegraphic expenses are not included.

§ (11.58.) MR. SYDNEY GEDGE (Stockport)
rose in his place and claimed to move "That the Question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that question.
Debate resumed.

§ MR. MORTON
continued: I do trust the right hon. Gentleman will consent to postpone the Vote. I am anxious not to take a Division, but to obtain information which we have a right to demand with the Vote before us. It is very well for the Leader of the House to tell us that opportunities for discussion will arise later in the Session; but I am sorry to say that, so far as my limited experience goes, we do not get those opportunities. If we leave matters over until the regular Estimates for the year are before us, we shall find ourselves in exactly the position we were in last year at the end of the Session, when Votes for millions of money were forced through 1328 at late hours of the night when public discussion was impossible. It is absurd to tell us to take our chance of another opportunity; we shall never get our opportunity unless we make it. I have made up my mind that we can only hope for discussion early in the Session, and whenever matters require it I shall endeavour to raise discussion on Supplementary Estimates and Votes on Account. So far as I have been able to read the newspapers, and that is the only source of information in regard to this expenditure—and I admit that hon. Members have a right to laugh, for it is ridiculous that Members of the British House of Commons should have to go to the daily Press for information they ought to obtain here—the greater part of this expenditure arises upon a subject fairly open to our discussion—the foreign policy of the Government.
It being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.
Resolutions to be reported tomorrow.
Committee also report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.