§ * THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. JACKSON, Leeds, N.)Mr. Speaker, in asking leave to introduce the Bill for dealing with the question of education in Ireland, I may perhaps be allowed to refer very shortly to the circumstances in which we find ourselves, and which cause us to have to, deal with this question of education. The House is aware that last year a grant of money was made, the result of which has been practically the freeing of education in England and Scotland. Following that grant there has been placed at the disposal of Ireland a sum which I may call, for the purpose of shortness, the equivalent grant for Ireland; and this, therefore, seems to me an opportunity for attempting to deal with a very important question, and putting, if possible, elementary education in Ireland on a broader and, I hope, a more efficient basis. Sir, the House is aware that the question of education in Ireland is one in which the Irish people take a very great and a very deep interest. For a long time, in fact, Ireland made more progress in its educational machinery, at one period of its history, than this country. Since 1831, when the National Education Commissioners were established, we have been indebted to the National Education Commissioners for very great and very valuable services; and I would desire to take this opportunity of expressing my sense of appreciation of the valuable work which has been done by that body, a body almost unique in Ireland as being a body which depends entirely for its reward upon its own conscientious conviction of duty discharged, a body which has won the respect of all those who have been brought into contact with 969 it, and which, in another degree, has set, I think, a great example, an example of great encouragement—I mean the fact that we have there a body, differing it may be in political principles, differing sharply—it is the fact—in their religious principles; and yet, so far as I know, there has never been any occasion on which difficulties have arisen either from politics or from religion in connection with that important administration. This, Sir, I think is a very encouraging feature, and one which redounds very much to the credit of the body of the Commissioners, whom we call the National Educational Commissioners of Ireland. They have carried on their duties under great difficulties sometimes. They have had great difficulties to contend with; or rather, perhaps, I might say, they have not had the great advantages which have been possessed by those who have had to discharge the duties connected with education either in this country or in Scotland. Since the year 1872 the average attendance in the national schools in Ireland has shown a steady and continuous increase. This may be due partly to the fact that at that time there was introduced a system which gave to the teachers some interest in the results of their work. Be that as it may, I want to press this point upon the attention of the House: that in 1872 practically the average attendance in Ireland, compared with the population of Ireland, ran neck and neck with the average attendance in England. Since that time, notwithstanding a diminishing population, the average attendance in the Irish national schools has shown a gradual and almost continuous increase. I may give the House just three or four figures which show the position. In 1872 the number of children in average attendance was 355,000, leaving out the odd figures; in 1876 it was 416,000; in 1880 it was 468,000; and in 1890 it was 489,000. Taken, as I say, in conjunction with the fact that during this period there has been a diminishing population, these results are not entirely unsatisfactory, especially when we bear in mind—and I ask leave to point this out to the House—that the conditions of the systems in Ireland and in England are not the same. There is a considerable difference in the systems. In England the unit 970 with which the English Educational Department has to deal is rather the Local Authority. Practically, the English Department deals only with the questions of inspection and of certificates. In Ireland the relations of the State to education are very different. The Education Commissioners in Ireland not only deal with the individual schools, but they regulate and fix the salaries of the various classes of teachers in these schools; and, therefore, they have a far larger responsibility as regards the question of education generally than has the Education Department in this country. I need not remind the House that, whilst speaking roundly, the State contributes in England and Scotland about two-fifths of the cost of education; the State contributes in Ireland about four-fifths of the cost of education. In Ireland the remuneration of the teachers is, as I have said, fixed by the Education Commissioners, and they are brought, therefore, more directly in contact with the individual teachers and the individual schools. There is, again, another point to which I must make reference in passing; and that is, that the question of religion in Ireland has a very considerable influence on the question of education. It is true that the system in Ireland was planned and intended to provide for and to promote what has been called "combined secular and separate religious instruction" But it is also true that by the continuous efforts, both of the Protestants and of the Roman Catholics, there has been the gradual growth of unmixed schools; and the result is that we have in Ireland what almost amounts practically to a system of denominational education.
An hon. MEMBER: Hear, hear!
§ * MR. JACKSONI know my hon. Friend wishes—I will not say believes—that that was not the fact. But my hon. Friend knows that this tendency has been growing, and not from one side only but from both sides. There has been an increasing disposition, both on the part of the Roman Catholics and of the Protestants, to provide separate schools wherever they had a number of children sufficient to enable them to ask 971 for a separate school to be provided. Speaking personally, and expressing only my own individual opinion, I regret that such should be the fact. I believe that the mixed schools have been of great service. The example that I have just quoted—of the body of Educational Commissioners themselves—of the good service they have performed in Ireland, leads me to the conclusion, along with other circumstances which have come to my knowledge, that it would be to the advantage of Ireland, it would be to the advantage of both Parties and of both denominations, that they should be brought together in contact as much as possible, and, by experience, taught that they could live and work together, each of them rendering good service to the State. I come now to a point of still greater importance, and that is the question of attendance at the schools. I need not remind the House that in 1870, when the Education Act was passed for this country, there was instituted at that time a system of what was called compulsory attendance. For a period of time it was what I may call optional upon the Local Bodies to adopt it or not, and for a time there was no very general application of it. But in 1876, I think it was, an Act was passed which made the bye-laws compulsory; and I will give the House one or two figures which show the extraordinary strides which the average attendance at the schools in this country made from the particular date to which I have referred. It is true that Ireland was excluded, I would say, from the compulsory clauses—I had almost said from the benefits of the compulsory clauses—of that Act. In 1872, then, the number of children examined in England was 661,000, again leaving out the odd figures, which represented 2.86 of the population of the country. In 1876 that percentage rose from 2.86 to 4.69 of the population. In 1880 it rose to 7.44 of the population; in 1884 it rose to 8.63 of the population; in 1890 it rose to 8.83 of the population. Perhaps the results will impress themselves more upon the minds of hon. Members of this House if I give just these five 972 figures showing the average attendance at the schools in these periods. In 1872 the average attendance in the English schools was 1,314,000; in 1876 it was 1,984,000; in 1880 it had risen to 2,594,000; and in 1890 it had risen to 3,717,000. Sir, these are remarkable figures, and they show what an enormous stride was made in the average attendance in the schools of this country following upon the measure which was taken at that time. In 1890—and this is almost the last figure that I shall quote. But let me first say that, as I have already told the House, in 1872 the average attendance in England and Ireland respectively, compared with the population, was what I have called neck and neck. In 1890 the average attendance, as compared with the numbers on the register in England, equalled nearly 80 per cent.; whilst in Ireland the average attendance, in proportion to the number on the rolls of the whole of Ireland, was not quite 60 per cent.; and therefore the position is this: that whilst they were relatively equal in 1872, in 1890 they had fallen away in Ireland until they were 20 per cent. behindhand. I may put the figures in another way, which I think will bring them more clearly home to Members in this House. If you take the population of the respective countries, and test the average attendance compared with the population of the three countries, these are the facts. Taking the population of England at 29,000,000, we have an average attendance in the schools of 3,750,000, or 12.9 per cent. of the population. In Scotland, with a population of 4,000,000, an average attendance of 519,000 children, or 13 per cent. of the population. Bearing in mind that Scotland perhaps compares, in some respects, more nearly with Ireland than it does with England—for there are districts in Scotland remote and difficult of access, which possibly may have thrown the calculation a little on the other side—what are the facts in Ireland? With a population of 4,700,000, you have an average attendance of about 490,000, or about 10.4 per cent of the population.
§ * MR. JACKSONI take the estimate from the Census of 1891, which puts the 973 population of Ireland at 4,700,000, and I take the average attendance during the year 1890, giving a little turn to it because it has rather increased since.
§ MR. J. O'KELLYWill the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is using the same Census for the three populations?
§ * MR. JACKSONYes, Sir; but now let me put the figures in another way. Supposing you apply to Ireland the figures which I have shown in England and Scotland, namely, 13 per cent. you get this result: that 13 per cent. of the 4,700,000 ought to give you an average attendance in your schools of 611,000; but you have about 490,000, and therefore the net result is that you have from 110,000 to 120,000 children in Ireland who ought to be in school, and who are not in school. Now, Sir, I think if any figures could convince the Members of this House that it is necessary to devise some means by which we can bring into the national schools in Ireland the children who ought to be there, the figures I have quoted are conclusive on that point.
§ MR. M. J. KENNYWill the right hon. Gentleman give the number of pupils who present themselves annually for examination?
§ * MR. JACKSONWell, I believe it would in no sense alter the proportion I have given, and it certainly would not affect the percentage, however good. I take the hon. Member's point to be this. I can imagine his saying: Though the attendance may not be so good in Ireland, the quality of education is better, because we pass a large percentage in examinations. But my answer to him would be at once that if the material is so good, and if the teaching is so good, why should you not bring within the scope of it the whole of the children who are capable of being brought. I think these figures point to the fact that we must devise some means by which we can bring within the education facilities which are provided in Ireland this large body of children who, at present, suffer from the want of it, and this points clearly in the direction that one of the 974 measures to be taken is to provide in some form for applying to Ireland the principle of compulsory attendance. The idea of applying compulsory attendance to Ireland is not new to the House. In 1877, Mr. O'Shaughnessy, who was at that time a Member of the House, brought forward a Motion implying the principle of compulsory attendance in its application to Ireland. That Motion was—I will not say refused, but he was appealed to, as we are from time to time, to be satisfied with the discussion—and a very interesting discussion it was, as anyone will see who reads it now—and with having raised the important question, and he was satisfied with having done so. In 1883 he brought forward again a somewhat similar Motion, which affirmed the principle of compulsory attendance, coupled with a condition that possibly it might be necessary in some districts to modify it in its application to Ireland. That Motion was accepted unanimously by this House. In 1885 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Stirling Burghs, who at that time filled the office of Chief Secretary, introduced to this House a Bill which not only embodied the principle of compulsory attendance, but also provided for several other matters connected with education in Ireland. The principle was not only recognised, but it was also applied; and I think I may say that in recent years we have witnessed in many quarters of great influence a great change in the direction of the acceptance of the principle of compulsion. I have seen lately a report of an interesting speech, made by the Bishop of Limerick, in which he accepts, as I take it, the principle of compulsion. It is true he points out that he thinks that in applying this principle to Ireland there should be careful consideration of the varying conditions of Ireland, and with that I have no reason to find fault. It is the duty of those who propose legislation of that kind to take into account the different conditions, and as far as possible to propose measures which are likely to create the least friction and be the most beneficial. If we could once get the principle of compulsory attendance tried in Ireland, I think no one would deny that the value of it must be very great. It is not only 975 that you get into your schools a larger number of children in average attendance, but from an educational point of view you have the still more important fact that you get more regular and continuous attendance in your schools, and that is a matter of very great importance. In the Bill I am asking to introduce we have endeavoured to provide, as far as we can, a system of compulsory attendance which, whilst we attempt to apply it to certain parts of Ireland without delay, shall, at the same time, possess a certain amount of elasticity, and of consideration for the various conditions of the population of Ireland. I see my hon. Friend the Member for South Tyrone (Mr. T. W. Russell) shakes his head, but I would appeal to him, if it is necessary to do so, to consider this: It is as clear as daylight that if you will once apply to any portion of Ireland the principle of compulsory attendance, and see its beneficial effects, there can be no doubt that the average attendance—the improved attendance—in those districts will be such that no other district in Ireland will long remain without the same advantages. Therefore, I attach more importance, it may be, to the introduction and acceptance of the principle than to its immediate application throughout the whole length and breadth of Ireland. But there is another reason which I shall allude to presently, which will explain to some extent why we propose to take the course we do. In this Bill—and it follows the system in England, and also, I may say, the lines of the Bill introduced by the right hon. Gentleman in 1885—we propose to make it the duty of the parent to send his child to school between the ages of 6 and 14. We propose to make it illegal to employ children at all under 11 years, and also to make it illegal to employ them between 11 and 14 years of age, unless they get a certificate of proficiency. I may say that this part of the Bill applies——
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLDoes it apply to the agricultural districts?
§ * MR. JACKSONThis part of the Bill, I was going to say, applies, and applies immediately, to towns under Corporations and towns under Town 976 Commissioners. I believe it may be stated, speaking broadly, that that represents only one-fourth of the population of Ireland. But one reason why we have adopted this plan is that the means for enforcing this compulsory attendance is to be provided by the School Attendance Committee appointed by the Local Authority. The Local Authority in the case of the Corporations of towns we have ready to our hands; and we provide in the Bill that all Local Authorities created in the future, whether County Councils or Baronial Councils, may apply this part of the Act to their districts. Therefore we are making, at present, arrangements for the towns, and we are making provision that as soon as the Local Government Bill is passed, the Local Authorities so set up shall have power to apply this part of the Act, and so cover all the districts in Ireland. But I have said that the School Attendance Committee is to be appointed by the Local Authority, and we have thought it desirable to provide some elasticity as regards the attendance to be given, in order to comply with the Act. We recognise that it may be necessary or desirable that we should not exact possibly the same number of attendances in the agricultural districts in Ireland that you exact in the town population; and, in order to give that elasticity, we propose to leave to the Education Commissioners the power to determine and regulate the number of attendances which it is necessary to make in each district within the area of each School Attendance Committee. That, I think, will give the elasticity which will meet the views of the hon. Member for South Tyrone. In the Bill of 1885 it was proposed that the number of attendances should be 150. Well, now, 150 may be a very good number or it may not for all parts of Ireland, but we leave it to the Education Commissioners. The tendency will be always to screw up the attendance to that which is found to be possible in the very best attended schools in Ireland Therefore, it will work automatically in the direction of screwing up the attendances from time to time.
MR. J. MORLEYDo we understand that the application of compulsion is to be optional on the part of the County Council when it is created, but not optional on the Town Commissioners?
§ * MR. JACKSONAs the Bill is drawn it stands with the word "may." It is compulsory as regards towns under Town Councils and Town Commissioners, and it stands with the word "may" in the Bill in regard to its application to Local Authorities to be constituted hereafter. But I quite appreciate the point of the right hon. Gentleman, and if I can feel sure that I shall have his assistance in turning that word "may" into "shall," I shall be glad to avail myself of it. Now, Sir, I come to another part of the Bill which is, perhaps, after all, the part which will interest most Members of the House, and that is the financial part; and here, Sir, I must take the opportunity of reminding the House of the position in which we stand as regards Ireland in this matter. We have a sum of about £90,000 due to Ireland for the current financial year—that is to say, for the year ending on the 31st of next month. It is proposed, as hon. Members are aware, to dispose of that £90,000 by means of a Vote of this House in the form of a Supplementary Estimate, and it may be convenient—and probably hon. Members would prefer—that I should state now how it is proposed to deal with the £90,000. Sir, there have been indications that for some time past that Members of this House, the great body of school teachers in Ireland, and others, have been taking considerable interest in the question of teachers' pensions. The question put to me to-day was practically to ask whether, in accordance with the understanding when the Teachers' Pension Fund was established, there had been the usual periodic revision and actuarial calculation showing the present position of the fund. I am sure this House will feel that there would be, and naturally would be, great disappointment on the part of those teachers who have contributed towards that fund, and who are looking forward to the time when they may expect to derive the benefit and pension they have 978 earned from it, there would be, I say, great disappointment if it were felt that there was any doubt as to the permanence and solvency of the fund. Sir, it is my duty to say that the revision, which the accounts of the fund have recently undergone, has shown that the benefits which have been, or are being given, or the contributions being made, either the one is too great or the other is too small, and the consequence is that the fund shows a tendency towards getting into backwater; and under these circumstances I think there can be no doubt that the duty is imposed upon us, and I think it would be the view of the teachers themselves that this £90,000, which is neither more nor less than a windfall, should be utilised for the purpose of aiding the capital sum of the Teachers' Pension Fund, and it will be my duty to propose to the House that the sum for the current year shall be handed over to the fund for the purpose of improving its position. Now, Sir, we have, further, a sum in round figures for the ensuing year at our disposal of, say, £200,000. The House is aware that this is an equivalent grant to the grant given to England and Scotland, which in England and Scotland produced free schools for the population of those two countries, and I gather, so far as I am able to gather from the opinions of those who are justified in speaking with authority, there is a feeling in Ireland that whatever is done with this money one of our first objects should be, if we cannot free the whole of the schools in Ireland from school pence, we should free the largest portion of them with the money at our disposal. I think I shall be able to show that this proposal is a perfectly reasonable one, and meets with acceptance in the opinions of those to whose opinions great respect attaches. I believe it also meets with the acceptance of all the people of Ireland. I take it there can be no question about its being desirable to the teachers in Ireland, because they would benefit by it. There is no doubt that it is a very important question; and the Bill proposes that, under certain conditions, there shall be a considerable proportion of the schools in Ireland freed from school pence. There have been, I need hardly say, a great many suggestions made for dealing with the £200,000, which have reached me. I have had the 979 advantage of seeing the report of a great meeting held in Dublin, presided over by the Archbishop of that city, in which was evinced what I suppose is the opinion, mainly, of the Protestants of Ireland. At that meeting there was a very decided expression of opinion in favour of applying the money in the shape of additions to class salaries. I have had the advantage of seeing, following that, the opinions expressed by the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, in which he took a strong line in the extreme opposite direction, that the money should be granted in the form of capitation grants. I have had the advantage of hearing from a deputation of teachers, who waited upon me, their views as to the particular form they would desire, and so far as I am able to judge, although starting off with the view that it would be desirable to appropriate the money in class salaries, they have modified their views, and are now of opinion that it might be disposed of rightly and properly, partly in one way and partly in the other. They have expressed fears lest, if the whole be given in the form of capitation grant, they may be placed at the will of parents, and their remuneration depend too much on the school fees. Now, I do not think the result of fees on attendance in Ireland shows anything except that it has been beneficial both to the children and the teachers. I have had the advantage of seeing the view taken by the great Presbyterian Body, and also the view recently expressed at a meeting of Roman Catholic Bishops. I should like to mention at this point what appears to me to be rather an important fact, and one which, perhaps, gives us a certain amount of freedom of action, which otherwise we might have felt some difficulty about, and that is the effect in pounds, shillings, and pence of the application of the general methods of distribution of this money on the great divisions of the Roman Catholic and Protestant populations of Ireland. I have had certain calculations made; I have had the question tested in order to ascertain what would be the effect of applying the money wholly in class salaries, what would be the effect of applying the whole of the money in capitation grants, and what would be the effect of applying half in one way and 980 half in the other. I am told that these calculations show that there is practically no difference whatever in the aggregate amount of money which will go to Roman Catholics and Protestants respectively, whichever plan we may adopt. That is a very important matter, I think, because it leaves us, at all events, more freedom, without creating unnecessary friction, without doing injustice to either of these great denominations. It leaves us a little more freedom as regards the distribution.
§ MR. O'KELLY (Roscommon, N.)If the whole of the money were applied to the abolition of school fees what would be the effect? How far would it go?
§ * MR. JACKSONI do not quite appreciate the hon. Gentleman's question. I was pointing out—
§ MR. O'KELLYI beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. What would be the effect on the school fees if the whole sum were applied to abolish the fees all over Ireland?
§ * MR. JACKSONI did not quite catch the question. I think I may answer it by this fact. He may take it that the whole school fees in Ireland are represented by about £104,000, and therefore to really abolish the whole of the fees would absorb about half the amount in our hands. Well, Sir, I have said that I have had a great many suggestions, but I have not felt it in my power to accept in their entirety any of the proposals that have been made. It has come to my knowledge, and I think it is in the knowledge of a great many of the Members of this House for Ireland, that there has been for some time past a feeling that teachers in Ireland are not very adequately or liberally paid. It has also been brought to my attention that the class of assistant teachers, failing to get beyond that position, may go on for a great number of years on a very small and, I must say, inadequate salary. There are, therefore, little grievances of that kind which, I think, it is desirable to take advantage of this opportunity to endeavour to remedy. We propose to 981 make an addition to the class salaries of teachers. We propose to make some improvement in the remuneration of assistant teachers who have seven years of service as assistant teachers. We propose to make a little provision in order to improve the position of the smallest schools in Ireland. The smallest schools in Ireland, I will remind the House, are not confined to one denomination; they belong to both denominations, and, therefore, it is not a question of religion. We propose to make a capitation grant practically of the balance. Stated roughly, the apportionment of the money will take the form of half in capitation grants and one-half in the other directions I have indicated. For these benefits which we propose to confer we propose to ask something in return; we propose to ask that all schools, the fees of which do not exceed 6s. per child per annum, shall in future be free from school fees. It may be asked why I have suggested 6s. I will tell the House. I recognise the principle that it is desirable not only to compensate the teacher for the abolition of school fees, but also to give him a little improvement in his position in addition. The total sum at our disposal practically represents 8s. per head on the average attendance. I should have been glad if it had been possible to obtain enough for the abolition up to the point of 8s., but, as hon. Members will see, if that were done the teachers in schools, the fees of which were 8s. per head per annum, would gain no benefit whatever under the Bill. Therefore I have, in order, if you like, to make a compromise—for it is a compromise—adopted 6s. as the limit, in order-to leave the teacher something in addition to the compensation that is given for the abolition of school fees. The effect of this distribution will be this—and I must not conceal it from the House—that it will give the greater benefit to the poor districts and the poor schools than to the larger and better schools. I do not know that that in itself is unjust or ought of necessity to be objected to. I have now practically given to the House all the information——
* JACKSONI do not know about the Christian Brothers. The Christian Brothers, if they come under 982 the Act, will benefit by it. I omitted to mention that where there are in Ireland schools paid by capitation grant and not by class salaries, it will, of course, be necessary to make an augmented capitation grant in order to compensate for the addition to the class salaries. I apologise for detaining the House at such length. The question is a most important one. There have been measures, no doubt, from time to time introduced into this House which seemed to be of greater importance, but I venture to think that if we can devise some means by which the benefits of education shall be extended to the whole of the children of Ireland of school age; if we can bring within its influence the whole of these children, we shall confer, not only upon the children of Ireland a great advantage, but we shall confer upon Ireland itself a great advantage, and I feel that I shall not appeal in vain to the Members of this House when I ask them to help. It may be that in some of its details the Bill may not meet with the unanimous approval of the House. I believe, however, that it is fairly constructed, that it is equitable in its distribution, and I think I may appeal with confidence to the Members of this House to endeavour to make it a success.
§ *(10.45.) MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY (Londonderry)I am sure we all heard with the deepest interest the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, and I am equally sure we are all willing and resolved to give his measure, which he has so lucidly explained, the very fullest consideration. The right hon. Gentleman made a clear statement, but at the same time the Bill is a very complex measure, necessarily a very complex measure, dealing with a complicated question, and in a case like that the clearer the statement in which it is explained the more the difficulties and complications become apparent. Of course, we do not intend to offer any opposition at this stage of the measure, and I am bound to say we recognize very cordially some good things and some benefits in the measure as it has been sketched out by the right hon. Gentleman. At the same time I think there are many faults in it, into the 983 details of which I shall not go at the present moment. I think the right hon. Gentleman might have made some provision for recognising the great claims of the schools of the Christian Brothers. I did not understand from him that they are included in the benefits of this measure. I think that the standard of seven years for the assistant teachers is surely rather high. Then the right hon. Gentleman made a comparison between the progress of education in Ireland and in England, as shown by the attendance at schools. At one time, he said, they ran neck and neck, which is a very good and clear expression, but that, later on, one went forward—that while England had gone forward, Ireland had fallen back. But is it not a fact that things have taken place in Ireland which made popular education in Ireland at one time less palatable than it was before? Of course, I understand that the right hon. Gentleman compared the national schools of Ireland with the national schools of England. But then again you leave out of the calculation all the teaching under the Christian Brothers, and all the teaching in the many other such voluntary schools of the country; and I fancy if all were put together, the Irish people would be found not behind, not running neck and neck, but even in advance of the education of children in English schools. The right hon. Gentleman spoke at some length on the question of compulsion. I never understood that there was, in Ireland, any absolute objection to the principle of compulsion, provided there was a certain amount of care in the time, the development, and the application of it. The right hon. Gentleman has spoken as to the necessity of elasticity in the application of the principle. What we want to know is, whether the elasticity is to be elastic enough, and whether the elasticity always means that it will be elastic at the right time, and in the right places. Again, the right hon. Gentleman seemed to make his measure a little too much a companion to that valuable measure the Local Government Bill, which is about to be introduced for the extreme benefit of the people of Ireland. I think the right hon. Gentleman made a little too much a Calais-Douvres consortship of the two measures in the palliative 984 principle to be applied to Ireland. I should recommend the right hon. Gentleman to rest his measure on principles wholly independent of that other measure which it is barely possible may never be passed into law. On the whole, I have to say that we do certainly recognize some points of advantage in this measure. I admit cordially the sincerity of the right hon. Gentleman in his experiment to try and satisfy the wishes of all classes of the Irish people, and I can only say that we desire to give the measure full consideration. The matter is a complicated one, but I can assure the House that we are anxious to give the measure fair and full hearing.
§ (10.50.) COLONEL WARING (Down, N.)I do not wish to intrude upon the time of the House at any length upon this question. I can only say that I agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down in recognising that this measure is well intended, and may result in great advantage to the people of Ireland. At the same time, I know how very different a measure may be when we see it in black and white, to what we think it is when laid before the House by a right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench, and I shall therefore reserve any decided opinion until I shall see it presented to the House in the form of a Bill. One suggestion I earnestly agree with, and that is as to the use proposed to be made of the £90,000. I think that no reasonable person could object to it. As to what should be done about the other sum, I should like to see how the figures work out. At the same time, I think the Bill is one which, with some little alterations that will be made in Committee, may be rendered a fairly satisfactory measure to all parties in Ireland. I do not intend to delay the House with any further remarks.
§ (10.55.) COLONEL NOLAN (Galway, N.)I am sorry I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the £90,000. I think that is the weak point of the whole Bill. The Chief Secretary for Ireland called it a windfall, and it appears that when the Chief Secretary for Ireland gets a windfall he can do what he likes with it. That is his view. I do not think it at all. It is 985 Ireland's share of taxation on whisky and tobacco, and whisky is taxed in Ireland because it is one of our chief products.
COLONEL NOLANI do not thank any Government for the share of that sum. I think Ireland has got a little less than her share, and I think it was not quite reasonably calculated as to its being a windfall.
§ MR. JACKSONI did not mean that it was so much a windfall to Ireland; what I meant was that it was more a windfall to the teachers.
§ COLONEL NOLANMy point is this, that he has not improved the pensions, as I hope he will in the Bill. If he would raise the pensions, or make them commence at an earlier age, it would be an advantage to the teachers, but all he has done is to use this money, which is purely Irish money, to remedy the errors of his own calculations. It was not the Irish Members who settled the rate of pensions. They have made their calculations wrong, and they now propose to put the matter right by using this £90,000, without givng any additional benefit to the teachers. Nothing additional is to be done for the teachers; they are to get no higher rate of pension. It is not to date from an earlier time, as the Treasury made all these wrong calculations with our money.
§ MR. GOSCHENIt is not the Treasury that made these calculations. The hon. Member will find he is in error, and that the Treasury was not responsible.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYWho then?
§ COLONEL NOLANAs the right hon. Gentleman never allowed an Irishman to be Chancellor of the Exchequer, we are, of course, in a certain amount of mist. But I need not go further. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer may toss over responsibility From one Department to another, but it seems to us in Ireland to be pretty much the same thing. I dare say he is playing on some official defence between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Educational Department in Ireland, who are responsible to the Treasury. Of course the Chancellor 986 of the Exchequer has a natural wish to disclaim, and for his own peace of mind I will grant the disclaimer; but the English Government is responsible, and the Irish Members have no responsibility, as they have had nothing to do with it. I must say that the Treasury has muddled away this money, and I repeat, either the pensions should be raised, or they should be made to date from an earlier age. On the whole, I think the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary as to the £200,000 a year very judicious, and I think he has hit the medium pretty fairly between class and capitation. I am sorry that nothing has been done for the Christian Brothers, and am glad that the hon. Member for Londonderry has referred to that point. I would like to explain that the Christian Brothers are the link between primary and secondary education in Ireland, and they do not get a penny of public money except under the head of science and art. The reason why they do not get any money is because they insist upon having certain Christian emblems in their schools. They represent the voluntary principle in Ireland, and yet they are excluded from all benefit under the Bill. I think this argument was used by the Bishop of Limerick, as to how the system of the Chief Secretary is going to work: that the Christian Brothers are in towns and only in towns, and in a great many towns there are no other Catholic schools. So that in the very place where you are going to make education compulsory you will have chiefly the Christian Brothers' schools, and you are going to compel the children to attend those schools; the Christian Brothers are to receive no benefit. The Christian Brothers' schools in Ireland represent the voluntary principle in Ireland. The plate goes round in the chapels, and subscriptions are sent in. The Christian Brothers give their own time practically for nothing; but they are kept and supported by the voluntary principle in Ireland. If you drive all the children into these schools, we say, at any rate, give us something. These are the very people excluded from pensions and benefits under this Bill. As to the general question of compulsion, I think the Chief Secretary has been rather in a hurry to apply the principle, not only to 987 the towns, but to the country. I am speaking entirely for myself, though not wholly for myself, but as at present instructed by my constituency. It is possible my constituency might say that they wished to be compelled to send their children to school, but my impression is that they would object; but it is possible that they may change their minds on the subject. But I should say at present that the rural population do not want to be driven into the schools. The right hon. Gentleman should recollect that in Ireland the distances from the schools are long, and the climate generally wet. I would advise the right hon. Gentleman for the present not to apply the compulsory system in the rural districts, unless the rural population vote for it.
§ MR. JACKSONThat is the proposal of the Bill.
§ COLONEL NOLANI know that is the proposal of the Bill, but some hon. Gentlemen seem to be anxious to go further. What I say is, the Chief Secretary has been urged to go further than the Bill; I advise him not to go further than the Bill at present. There is another point in the way of statistics, which I hope the Chief Secretary will look into. He seems to think that the number of children of school-going age bears the same relation to the population in Ireland as they do in England and Scotland. There is a very great difference in Ireland.
§ MR. JACKSONThat is so. As a matter of fact, the number of children is what is called within the total on the rolls, and, therefore, is within the number having made one attendance at the school.
§ COLONEL NOLANI do not think the right hon. Gentleman has quite grasped my point. My point is this: I do not know that the number of children in relation to the population is the same in Ireland as in England and Scotland. With regard to the number in attendance, the whole population of England and Scotland is chiefly urban, and the whole population of Ireland is chiefly rural, so that I do not think it fair to compare the two. Of course, there are dis- 988 tricts in Scotland—for instance, the Highlands—where the difficulties as to distances and climate are as great as in Ireland. I think the right hon. Gentleman should correct his figures with reference chiefly to the rural population. However, on the whole, I really think the Bill might have been very much worse. It is a very good Bill, with the exception of the provision about the £90,000, which is simply being confiscated. I think this is a Bill which ought to be passed; and I should like to see it passed during the present Session. I hope the Government will give priority to this Education Bill over the Local Government Bill, because, whatever may be said in favour of the Local Government Bill, it does not bring us any money whatever.
§ (11.10.) MR. JOHN O'CONNOR (Tipperary, S.)I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that the Bill before the House might easily be a worse one, but I am very far from saying that it could not have been better in some of its details. I am sure that when it arrives at the Committee stage we shall be able to make it more perfect than it is. I am glad to find that at last the poor teachers of Ireland and their claims are going to be recognised. With that part of the Bill I heartily agree; although I should be very sorry indeed if any surplus in the hands of the Government should he entirely devoted to the amelioration of the condition of the teachers, because the National School teachers of Ireland, for whom I have pleaded in this House for many years, are not above human nature, and very possibly they might desire more than we should be inclined to give them. For year after year I have endeavoured to press upon Government after Government, and particularly the Government now in Office, the grievances of that meritorious and well-deserving body, the National School teachers of Ireland. I was told by officials sitting upon that Bench from which this Bill has been fulminated to-night that they had no grievances whatever; that all their cases had been considered, and there was no want that was not supplied. Yet, now we have the Chief Secretary for Ireland standing up in his place and 989 proposing a Bill recognising the claims they at one time denied, and proposing to satisfy them by the application of £90,000. The only thing I have to say about that is this—"better late than never." I welcome the proposals; and, so far as I am concerned, that portion of the Bill, at least, shall receive no opposition whatever. With regard to the principle of compulsion, I have to say that I trust the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary will stick to his principle of elasticity. In Ireland—and we know our people well—there is no necessity, or almost no necessity, for applying the principle of compulsion. The intention of an Irish parent is to educate his children better than he has been educated himself, and place them in a position higher than the position he has occupied in social or commercial life. That has been the main tendency of the Irish character, and where there has been any want of it, or where it could not be applied by the intention of the parent, it would be cruel to enforce it by any legislation. If the Irish parent has not been able to fulfil his desire with regard to the education of his children, it is because the means and other conditions were not favourable to such intentions; it is because the schools were too far away, or the children too badly clad; or because they had no boots to their feet, and perhaps sometimes no food to eat, that there was any halting in that respect. I therefore hope the right hon. Gentleman will stick to his elasticity with regard to the application of the principle of compulsory education. There is one disappointment that I feel with regard to this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman does not provide in the Bill in the slightest degree for any application of the funds towards technical education in these primary schools. The Irish people are absolutely devoid of technical education. Ireland suffers from the want of manufactures. Ireland is on the eve of the resuscitation of her manufactures; and there is no provision in that Bill for the purpose of applying any of the funds at the disposal of the Government in order to promote technical education in Ireland. It not only does not provide in the primary National Schools for the promotion of technical education, but it absolutely denies it to the only National Schools in Ireland that 990 provide the people with technical education. The only schools in Ireland where an Irish boy is taught to handle a tool, by which he may have to provide himself with a future, are the Christian Brothers' Schools of Ireland. In the Christian Brothers' Schools you have technical education, and not in your so-called National Schools, upon which you are going to expend £200,000—£90,000 in pensions. But perhaps the English Government do not wish the Irishman to go into the world fully equipped with technical knowledge? ("No!") It appears very like it. The hon. Member for South Belfast (Mr. William Johnston) says "no." But I will put it on a lower ground. Why not give the Irishman a technical education for the sake of the development of the resources of his own country? I certainly should have thought that any Government who wished to come at the root of education in Ireland should establish through all the primary schools of Ireland—those that were established on the National School system and those that were not—technical schools to be subsidised by Imperial funds. There is a great want in Ireland in this respect. In this Bill there was a splendid opportunity for the Government to supply that want. There was machinery in existence which they might have used. The Christian Brothers alone form the true national schools in the towns of Ireland, and any system of State aid which does not take them into account, is halting, false, and will not go to the root of the evil you desire to deal with. I reserve further criticism of the Bill; there are some details I do not like, but the Bill is in many respects an excellent measure, though it is not perfect. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will receive with a generous mind the representations made on behalf of existing representative institutions in Ireland, and will endeavour to make the Bill perfect.
§ *(11.23.) MR. T. W. RUSSELL (Tyrone, S.)The right hon. Gentleman in opening his speech, said, that this subject has aroused very strong feelings in Ireland. It has aroused very strong feelings indeed, as more than one Government has learned to its cost. As regards the Bill, I am bound to say it 991 is rather better from my own point of view than I expected. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman paid a tribute to that much maligned body, the Commissioners of National Education, a body which during 60 years has carried on a great work and done it, with certain drawbacks, uncommonly well. There is one point—though I am not going to commit myself to anything in the Bill—which I should like to comment upon. The right hon. Gentleman drew attention to the fact that although this system of national education was a mixed system, yet by the consent alike of Protestant and of Catholic it was rapidly becoming denominational. I challenge the fact itself, and I challenge the description of the fact. There were 8,000 schools on the operation list in 1890, and close upon 4,000 of these were mixed schools where Protestants and Roman Catholics received the same secular education. When he says to the House of Commons that Protestants are becoming more and more denominational, I wish to point out that there are at least 500,000 Protestants in Ulster who will be surprised to hear this; because if there is one thing that the Presbyterians of Ulster have been strong upon, it is this system of mixed education, in which they are supported by the Methodists, the Unitarians, and three-fourths of the Protestant Episcopalians of Ulster. In the Episcopalian as well as in the Presbyterian Church there is a very strong feeling in favour of this system. At all events the system is not denominational, and in the second place the Protestants, as a whole, are not in favour of denominational education. [...]o not wish to enter upon the question of compulsion; but I will say that the only objection I have to the Bill, is that it does not go far enough. I think the rural districts will have a right to complain, and that the rural districts in Ulster will complain, and the teachers all over Ireland will complain of this, because it will have an effect upon the capitation grant. As to the distribution of the —200,000 as between the capitation grant and the class salaries, I am agreeably surprised that the right hon. Gentleman appears to have taken a little bit of everybody's advice, and the only 992 persons left out in the cold are the Christian Brothers. The answer to that is, let them do as the monastery schools do, and the convents do; and they will come under the national grant at once, but so long as they insist upon a Catholic atmosphere in the schools, they cannot expect the rules of the National Board, upon which this system is founded, to be broken down to suit them. I complain that nothing has been done in respect of technical education; there can be no question that the system of education in Ireland can be improved. The books are old-world institutions, and the whole thing wants to be taken to pieces and re-modelled. No place is given to cookery and domestic economy, subjects which ought to be taught in the large towns especially. In Dublin, Limerick, and Cork the people are not fed, and they are not fed because their wives and daughters do not know anything of cooking. Reserving to myself the right to criticise the details at a later stage, I can only say that I am agreeably disappointed. This is a much better Bill than I expected, and it is a much worse Bill than was expected by gentlemen below the Gangway.
§ (11.32.) MR. KNOX (Cavan, W.)The hon. Member who has just sat down. has, in somewhat dubious terms, blessed the Bill. In the first place, the hon. Member has taken the Chief Secretary to task for not making provision for technical education. Some improvement was made in technical education during the administration of the Chief Secretary's predecessor, especially in the matter of sewing, and I well remember that the only opposition to that came from the hon. Member for South Tyrone and his friends. We all know the difficulties of starting a system of technical education where you have a large number of rural schools. I quite agree that something should be done, but I confess I cannot see how anything can he done in connection with the Bill which is already overloaded. As regards compulsion, the right hon. Gentleman said that by the Act of 1876 it was made compulsory upon School Attendance Committees to make bye-laws in England; but in England 993 instead of rushing headlong into compulsory education the course followed was an extremely cautious and slow one. I am told that in many rural districts in England compulsion is nothing more than a name, and I cannot think the right hon. Gentleman is acting unwisely in confining his Bill to the urban districts. The right hon. Gentleman said he proposed to fix the age at from 6 to 14. I fancy that is rather a longer period than was the case in England originally, so the number of children left at school who are over 14 years of age is larger in Ireland than in England. One thing which should be greatly deprecated, and which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider and guard against, is that anything connected with the unpopularity attending the enforcement of other laws should attach to education. If these School Attendance Committees work through the ordinary engines of the law, if, for example, they use the police, it would be possible for them to cause, in many districts, a very general feeling against the attendance altogether amongst considerable classes of the population. Another point of difficulty, and I cannot mention it without the deepest shame, is that in the more Protestant parts of Ulster the Catholics have no representation on a Local Body. In Belfast there is a system of religious exclusion. I avoid the use of stronger words—such as has parallel in no other part of the United Kingdom. In the City of Belfast not one single elected Poor Law Guardian is a Catholic. There is not a single member of the Town Council who is a Catholic.
§ MR. JOHNSTONRoman Catholics; do not call them Catholics.
§ MR. KNOXI do not quarrel about words; I am stating facts. I say as a Protestant, as a professor, every 12th of July, of the principles of civil and religious liberty, the hon. Member for South Belfast has reason to be ashamed, as I am ashamed, of the conduct of his co-religionists.
§ MR. JOHNSTONI am not.
§ MR. KNOXI go on to state facts in spite of the hon. Member's interruption. Not one single elected member of the Board of Guardians in Belfast is a Catholic, not a single member of the 994 Town Council is a Catholic. There is just one member of the Water Commission who is a Catholic; there is not a single member of the Harbour Commission who is a Catholic. In a city containing 70,000 Catholics among its population, there is no representation of Catholics on the Local Governing Bodies. This is a scandal and shame to the City of Belfast, a shame to the Protestant religion, a condition of things I, in common with every right-thinking Protestant, deplore. Having this state of facts to deal with, I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he purposes to give to a body which has shown in the mode in which they are selected their exclusive, if not their intolerant, character, the right to govern in these matters, in the way they would, the non-Protestant—the Catholic—population of Belfast? Everybody except bigots knows that the law of compulsory attendance requires much more careful working than most laws. It is necessary to work it with considerable regard to particular cases, or else you may, in many cases, do a great wrong and make your system generally unpopular. Everybody who sees anything of the working of education laws knows that. You want a sympathetic authority to work it, and can you believe, in the face of these facts, that the Catholic minority would not feel themselves placed under a School Attendance Committee of the Town Council—placed in a position, to put it mildly, of the utmost difficulty? The hon. Member opposite may say, "They can only make the children go to school." But I do say this: that if attendance is forced, if the law is enforced, without regard to particular cases, without respect to Catholics, while allowing considerable latitude to Protestants, the effect will be disastrous, and there is very great fear that the law enforced in this form would have this effect. I understand the right hon. Gentleman by his Local Government Bill brings in the principle of cumulative voting in county districts in Ireland. It is a point I am not quite certain of, that in rural districts the cumulative vote is introduced, but there is to be no change in the system of voting in boroughs?
§ MR. JACKSONassented.
§ MR. KNOXWell, if there is a case where cumulative voting is required it is 995 in the City of Belfast, for it is the one place in Ireland where you have a considerable minority not represented at all on Public Bodies, and in the matter of education there is more to be said for cumulative voting than in any other respect. I do say here you must, if you are to have the law working fairly, give some representation by some means to the Roman Catholic minority on the School Attendance Committee of Belfast, a representation to which they are fairly entitled. The City of Belfast was divided into five wards at the time when it was much smaller than it is to-day. I do not think that hon. Members should be proud of that. There has been no re-adjustment of wards; the city still remains divided into five, and the reason why there has been no re-adjustment is that with such, the Catholics would gain representation. It is in order to prevent this representation that the wards have been left in their old and now inconvenient method of division. Therefore, looking at the facts, it is incumbent on the right hon. Gentleman, if he does not intend to inflict great hardship on a large body of the population, to make some further provision for increased elasticity in his scheme.
§ MR. JACKSONIt is provided for.
§ MR. KNOXI am glad to hear it is provided for, that some provision for religious liberty is made. I venture to hope, also, that the School Attendance Committee will be so constituted that it will not be required to give to any unpopular officials, but to an entirely new body, the carrying out of the law carefully. It may then do great good to Ireland; but if not applied with the utmost consideration for diverse interests, and, I may say, the touching feelings of various denominations, it will end in disaster. The right hon. Gentleman's successor in the post of Secretary to the Treasury has visited the schools of the Christian Brothers in Cork. Now, I want to make a fair offer to the Chief Secretary. Will he allow his right hon. Colleague the Secretary to the Treasury to decide whether or not the Christian Brothers' Schools are worthy of State aid? These schools are carried on under great difficulties, and 996 they will find their difficulties increased under this Bill. It is surely necessary in making provision for compulsory education to make provision for voluntary schools? There are voluntary schools of the Protestant persuasion in the North. None of my hon. Friends object to seeing these included in provisions made for the schools of the Christian Brothers. Your Bill will put a greater strain upon voluntary schools, and it is right that these schools shonld have some grant from Imperial resources. If they only receive support in the same way voluntary schools receive it in England we shall be content. I hope that these various points, which need careful consideration, have been met in a way that will make the Bill work for the advantage of education in Ireland.
§ (11.48.) MR. M. HEALY (Cork)I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has any reason to complain of the reception his Bill has met with from this quarter of the House. I do not now intervene for the purpose of offering any hostile criticism nor do I intend to enter upon any detailed examination of the proposals which have been explained to us; but I would like to verify some of the observations which have fallen from my hon. Friends on some of the points they have dealt with. Unquestionably, there will be great disappointment in Ireland that the right hon. Gentleman has not taken this opportunity of dealing with the question of the schools of the Christian Brothers. It may be said the Bill does not touch the question of denominational as distinct from undenominational teaching, but simply introduces the principle of compulsion, making certain financial arrangements; and, therefore, no occasion arises for the change indicated. Now, there are many parts of Ireland, and many small towns, where the principle of compulsion will come into operation, where the only schools available are these very schools of the Christian Brothers, but which will be exempt from all benefit under the Bill. Take Lismore, in Waterford, as an example. Some 20 years ago the National School there was abolished and a Christian Brothers' school introduced in its place, largely by the aid of the late Duke of Devonshire, who handed over the school building, which was his 997 property, to the community of the Christian Brothers, and contributed very handsomely to their establishment. Now, are you going to compel the inhabitants to send their children to this school, and compel the school managers to receive them, and, at the same time, exclude the school from all benefit under this scheme? The hon. Gentleman (Mr. T. W. Russell) says a Catholic atmosphere is not to be encouraged——
§ MR. T. W. RUSSELLNot to be foisted into a National system of education.
§ MR. M. HEALYThe hon. Gentleman objects to the State making any payment to any school with a Catholic atmosphere. But when you have schools attended by Catholic children, of Catholic parents, and with a Conscience Clause, why should you not have a Catholic atmosphere? If you have schools exclusively of Protestant children, and with the protection of a Conscience Clause, why should you not have a Protestant atmosphere? That is all we ask. The Bishops of Ireland have never asked that in schools attended by children of more than one religion—mixed schools—that this relaxation of the present system of the National Board should be introduced. All they ask is that purely Catholic schools or purely Protestant schools, if they have fulfilled the other conditions which are prescribed by the National Board, that these schools should not be excluded from pecuniary advantage. The hon. Member for South Tyrone has denied the tendency to make the national system more and more a denominational system, but I appeal to the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, Have not repeated declarations of authorities in the Protestant Episcopalian Church, over and over again, made on the subject, been in favour—by a large majority in favour—of denominational education? I am quite free to concede that among Presbyterians the same opinion is held. If that be so, if the state of thing is as I have stated, why should not the Government recognise the fact in Ireland, and put an end to this anomaly, by which the teaching which does the most for the education of the Irish children is wholly excluded from any State aid? If this 998 body, the Christian Brothers, were established and teaching in England, every school established would be drawing result fees. Wherever in England you have a Catholic community you have schools conducted on precisely the same principle as the schools of the Christian Brothers, and these schools are drawing result fees—are receiving State aid—and this the hon. Gentleman objects to have applied to Ireland. These schools are shut out from State aid so far as primary education is concerned; but under the Intermediate Education Act the schools of the Christian Brothers are most successful in passing their pupils through examinations and getting prizes and result fees. Now, if it is right that Government should promote the schools of the Christian Brothers and give them aid under the intermediate education system, what principle is involved in refusing similar assistance in regard to primary education? I do not intend to continue this subject; but I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that, so long as this state of things is persisted in, so long must the question of national education in Ireland remain unsettled. One other word I will add, to express a doubt as to whether the body to which is to be entrusted the carrying out of the principle of compulsion is the best for the purpose. I quite admit it is exceedingly difficult to set up in Ireland anything in the nature of School Boards, so that there is no great choice left; but I do think the right hon. Gentleman will find that Corporate Bodies elected to look after an entirely different class of matters—bodies having no dealings, generally speaking, with educational matters, having totally different functions to discharge, will be bodies which will not effectively discharge the duties the right hon. Gentleman intends to cast upon them by this Bill. However, that is a matter open to argument at a later stage, and, having regard to the hour, I will not discuss it now.
§ (11.58.) MR. M. J. KENNY (Tyrone, Mid)This is a Bill which is of the utmost importance to Ireland, and it was a late hour when the right hon. Gentleman rose to introduce it, and not many Members have had the opportunity of making any observations upon it. Considering the importance of the subject, I 999 apprehend the right hon. Gentleman will not object to some further observations from Irish Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Derry (Mr. M'Carthy) spoke only for a few minutes, and the Bill was taken in the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton), who has devoted extraordinary attention to the subject with which the Bill deals, and who has been in communication during the past twelve months with the leaders of Catholic education in Ireland on these matters. My hon. Friend has not had an opportunity of speaking. It is a Bill of the widest importance; it proposes the application of a principle perfectly novel in Ireland, and hitherto never required, a principle to which some of us, to some extent, may be opposed. It is perfectly true that the Resolution adopted in 1883, and moved by the then Member for Limerick, pledged the House to support a system of compulsory education, but it was subject to certain modifications, and therefore the principle of absolute compulsion has never been accepted or enforced. The right hon. Gentleman himself, although he accepts in principle, goes through the form of introducing a system of elasticity——
It being Midnight the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed on Thursday next.