HC Deb 28 July 1891 vol 356 cc633-8

As amended, further considered.

MR. CALDWELL (Glasgow, St. Rollox)

I beg to move that the Debate be adjourned. I think the hour is too late for us to be justified in attempting to consider the provisions of this important Bill, and the Amendments of which notice has been given. We are not justified in passing legislation of this kind without giving it due consideration.

(1.5.) THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. P. B. ROBERTSON, Bute)

I hope my hon. Friend will not press his objection.

*MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! There is no Debate to adjourn. The hon. Member can proceed with his Amendments as he decides to proceed without an application for a grant.

DR. MCDONALD

On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness-shire, I beg to move to insert in the clause after "gift." the words— The County Councils may subscribe to any proposed harbour or pier from the sum granted to them by the first sub-section of the 22nd section of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put and negatived.

(1.8.) MR. CALDWELL

On Clause 2 I have to move an Amendment with the object of creating special harbour districts, the representatives of which shall have the management and maintenance of special harbour or local works.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, line 30, after the word "contained," to insert the words—" (2.) Upon requisition to that effect made in writing by not fewer than ten inhabitants of the district, the county council of any of the counties before named shall be bound to meet after twenty-one clear days' notice, and shall consider the propriety of forming part of their county into a special harbour or local works district, and the resolution of the county council at such meeting shall be published in one or more newspapers circulating in the district; and the production of such newspaper, or a certificate under the hand of the convener or vice convener of the county, or acting clerk of the county council (whose signature need not be proved), shall be sufficient evidence of such resolution; and, within twenty-one days after the date of such resolution, it shall be competent for any person interested to appeal against the resolution to the sheriff, and the sheriff, not being a sheriff substitute resident within the district, may either approve or disapprove of such resolution, and if he disapproves thereof he may either find that no special harbour or local works district should be formed, or may enlarge or limit the special district as defined by the resolution of the county council, or may find that a special harbour or local works district should be formed and may define the limits thereof; and the decision of the sheriff shall be binding upon the county council, and shall be final except where it is pronounced by a sheriff substitute, in which case it may be appealed to the sheriff."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

May I ask whether the Amendment is in order, having regard to the fact that it is merely part of a composite Amendment, part of which will impose a burden upon the people, which, as I understand, can only be done in Committee.

MR. CALDWELL

The Amendment has a substantive operation apart from the question of taxation.

MR. SPEAKER

The Amendment is in order.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The whole pith of the hon. Gentleman's proposal originally was to restrict the rating to the district primarily interested. That Motion is now thrown overboard, and the result of this Amendment will be that, whereas the county is to bear a rate of a penny in the £1 for the maintenance of harbours, their administration is to be put in the hands of a small district. That is a preposterous proposition.

(1.10.) The House divided:—Ayes 30; Noes 68.—(Div. List, No. 392.)

(1.25) MR. CALDWELL

I have now to move an Amendment to the effect that the plans of proposed harbours shall be prepared at the cost of the county. The Bill provides that this expense shall be borne by the persons locally interested, but I contend that, as the Government have refused to create special harbour districts, and there is no similar body on which this charge can legally be imposed, it should be borne by the county.

Amendment proposed, In page 1, line 30, after the word "contained," to insert the words "(3.) The district committee, acting under 'The Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889,' may, subject to regulations to be from time to time made with the consent of the county council, appoint a sub-committee fur the construction, management, and maintenance of the harbour or local works, and such sub-committee shall in part consist of persons, whether members of the district committee or not, who are resident within the special district."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

DR. MCDONALD

I cannot understand why the Lord Advocate should oppose this Amendment.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

If the object of the Amendment is to secure the competence of the County Council to appoint a sub-committee for the purpose of managing the works, that is already secured, and without any provision in this Bill at all, because under the Local Government Act the County Council have absolute power to do so. If the hon. Gentleman means to go over the old question of rating, that has been already decided, and I should be abusing the Forms of the House if I used this Amendment as an opportunity of discussing it.

(1.30.) DR. MCDONALD

Without the Amendment the Bill will be utterly useless in the poorer districts of the Highlands, as the people there cannot afford the cost of preparing the plans.

The House divided:—Ayes 27; Noes 66.—(Div. List, No. 393.)

MR. J. PARKER SMITH (Lanark, Partick)

I have to move an Amendment to Clause 2, to provide that the amount of free labour, or labour at a reduced wage, promised by the inhabitants shall be ascertained by the County Council before resolving to proceed with an application for a grant.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 11, after "obtained" insert, "The amount of free labour or labour at a reduced wage promised by the inhabitants."—(Mr. J. Parker Smith.)

Amendment agreed to.

(1.37.) DR. MCDONALD

On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, I move to insert in the clause, after "gift," the words— The County Councils may subscribe to any proposed harbour or pier from the sum granted to them by the 1st sub-section of the 22nd section of 'The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889.'

Amendment proposed, In page 2, line 14, after the word "gift," to insert the words, "The County Councils may subscribe to any proposed harbour or pier from the sum granted to them by the 1st subsection of the 22nd section of 'The Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889.' "—(Dr. M'Donald.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I retain the opinion I intimated in Committee, that the money should be made available under the general obligation to meet any deficiencies.

Question put, and negatived.

On Sub-section 4, which provides that if the Secretary for Scotland, after inquiry, entertains the application, he shall require the County Council to procure from the persons locally interested, and at the expense of such persons, plans and sections, with relative specifications of the proposed works and an estimate of the cost,

(1.40.) MR. CALDWELL

I beg to move the omission of the words "from the persons locally interested, and at the expense of such persons."

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 17, to leave out from the word "procure," to the word "plans," in line 18.—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The Government object to putting a burden of this kind on the rates.

The House divided:—Ayes 65; Noes 23.—(Div. List, No. 394.)

(1.46.) MR. CALDWELL

I now rise to move my last Amendment. Its object is to provide that power should be given to the Board of Trade to reduce the rates whenever an income equivalent to 4 per cent. should have been reached instead of one of 10 per cent. as provided in the Bill.

Amendment proposed, in page 5, line 7, to leave out the word "ton" and insert the word "four."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the Bill."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN, St. George's, Hanover Square)

May I point out that the 10 per cent. goes to the benefit of the ratepayers, and not to the benefit of the Government?

MR. J. PARKER SMITH

I beg to support the Amendment. The effect of the Bill will be that the country at large will make a profit out of individual piers which are intended for the benefit of fishermen.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

This proposal has been placed in the Bill to save the localities the expense of applying for Provisional Orders. The harbours are being constructed with Government money, and the provision is that the Board of Trade shall interpose in cases where the rates levied exceed the interest at the rate of 10 per cent. There is nothing to prevent the Local Authority reducing the rates without the intervention of the Board of Trade.

(1.56.) The House divided:—Ayes 63; Noes 25.—(Div. List, No. 395.)

(2.4.) Other Amendments made.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I beg to move that the Bill be now read the third time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(The Lord Advocate.)

MR. CALDWELL

I beg to move that the Debate be now adjourned. The Report stage of the Bill has been taken when many Scotch Members were away, and I think an opportunity should be afforded of considering the Bill in all its bearings before the Third Reading is taken.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Caldwell.)

MR. GOSCHEN

The Bill is one which is asked for by Scotland, and I am sure that if the Scotch Members were here they would object to any postponement. Without the Bill the £50,000 cannot be spent, and I am persuaded the majority of the Representatives of Scotland would be extremely sorry to lose a Bill which is a generous attempt on the part of the House to deal with the subject. I trust the House will be prepared to read the Bill a third time.

(2.6.) The House divided:—Ayes 22; Noes 66.—(Div. List, No. 396.)

Original Question again proposed.

(2.15.) MR. J. PARKER SMITH

In a few words, I wish to say what I think are the drawbacks and disadvantages of the Bill. I am afraid that the Bill will not meet the particular case it is intended to meet, namely, the case of small places, the people of which are not able to help themselves. The Commissioners recommended that facilities should be given to small and poor communities to erect boat slips and the like, by the sending down of foremen and supplying cement and other material. I doubt whether the Bill will operate in the very cases where it is most required. It will no doubt meet the case of people who have made themselves unpleasant, and who have broken the law, like the people of the Lews. I regret that the Government have not seen their way to accept suggestions which would, I believe, have done something to avoid such a state of things. The Bill will do good, but it might have been amended so as to do a great deal more good.

DR. TANNER

At this hour of the morning it is ridiculous to ask us to transact the business of the country, and, therefore, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

*MR. SPEAKER

I decline to put the Motion of the hon. Gentleman.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.