HC Deb 29 January 1891 vol 349 cc1381-4

On the Motion for Adjournment,

DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid)

When the Irish Bills were postponed just now I endeavoured to elicit the information whether it was really intended to proceed with them on the day for which they were set down, Monday. I put the question, I hope, in a courteous way, and it is for the convenience of Irish Members that they should know.

(12.11.) THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON, Leeds, N.)

I hope the hon. Member will not think I was guilty of any discourtesy to him or to the House, but it is impossible for me to say if the Bills will be taken on Monday or not.

DR. TANNER

It would be of great convenience, and save some expense to Irish Members, if they had due notice of when Irish business will be taken.

(12.12.) MR. STUART RENDEL (Montgomeryshire)

I am sorry to find that both the Ministers who have the Tithes Bill in charge are absent, but perhaps the Secretary to the Treasury can answer my question. The Committee stage of the Tithes Bill was set down just now for resumption to-day [Friday], but I hope that was merely formal? The Bill interests Welsh Members in a high degree, and they have paid close attentions to the discussions. I trust they will not be kept in uncertainty as to whether the Bill will be proceeded with, and that the Government will take the usual course, postponing the Bill to the next Government night.

(12.12.) MR. JACKSON

Friday is a Government night, and the Bill has been set down in the hope that it may be reached.

(12.12.) MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

It will be for the interest of the Government and the convenience of the House to frankly say the Bill will not be taken to-day. It is true that Friday is nominally a Government night, though it is not so in reality, and the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well it is not recognised as a Government night. Notice is down of a very interesting subject for discussion on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply, and the only effect of this vagueness as to whether the Bill will be brought on will be that a good many gentlemen will be induced to enlarge the horizon of the observations they may wish to make on that subject.

(12.13.) MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

If the Government really intend to make progress with business, the true course would be for them set down effective Supply for to-night. I have not the slightest doubt that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. Shaw-Lefevre) will be in his place to move the Motion of which he has given notice, but even if he should be unable to do so, it is well-known that any Member of the House can speak to the subject matter of that Motion, or on the general question of grievances, on the Order for the Speaker to leave the Chair. It is rather hard upon our Welsh friends, several of whom desire to get away until Monday to visit their constituents, to find that the Government have a design to seize Friday to make progress with the Bill in which those Members are greatly interested, when we know perfectly well the true course for the Government to pursue, if they anticipate that the preliminary Motion will not occupy the whole Sitting, is to put down effective Supply. Very often we hear towards the end of the Session that the Government are pressed for time for Supply, and here is a possible opportunity for taking Supply in the month of January, and yet the Secretary to the Treasury is not ready with it, but intimates an intention of taking the unusual course of going on with this Bill. I have never known a Government attempting this on a Friday night unless they have had the whole time of the House at their disposal. I do not imagine for a moment that the Government will have the slightest chance of making progress with their Bill if they put it down, but it is unfair to the Welsh Members that they should be kept in uncertainty, when, in the usual course, they would be enabled to relax their attention and have a day off.

(12.16.) MR. S. T. EVANS

Another reason why the Bill should not be taken arises out of what took place in Committee this evening. The Government accepted a proposal that a Schedule should be added, and this they did after considerable argument against the proposal. When the Government yielded, it was agreed that time would be required to frame the Schedule, and clauses would have to be reconsidered. I am not strictly in order, I am afraid, in referring to this, but I only want to show that the Committee stage cannot profitably be taken to-night, and even if it is put down, the Committee stage cannot be finished, but must still be carried over to Monday, Would it not be better then at once to set down the Bill for Monday, when I apprehend there will be no difficulty, so far as I am aware, in disposing of the Committee Stage?

(12.18.) MR. JACKSON

Only by the consent of the House can I speak again. In reply to the observations of the lion. and learned Member for Longford I have to say that the course he has indicated would be the right one if we had effective Supply ready. Bat bear in mind the House has only been sitting a week.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Oh, no; since November.

MR. JACKSON

But the hon. and learned Member knows perfectly well it is impossible to prepare the Estimates in November. An endeavour has been made to get the Estimates ready at least a fortnight earlier than the usual time, and I had hoped until this morning that it would have been possible to have circulated at any rate one of the classes for to-day. Clearly it is the duty of the Government to provide Government business on a Government night, and having no effective Supply we put down a Government Bill. I cannot carry the matter further. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will put a question; to the leader of the House to-morrow at question time—or as I observe my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has now entered the House he can give an answer.

(12.20.) MR. DILLWYN (Swansea)

I venture to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that he will listen to the appeal of the Welsh Members and for convenience, and to allow time for the preparation of the Schedule will let the Bill stand over to Monday.

(12.22.) THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Sir M. HICKS BEACH, Bristol, W.)

The only reason for putting the Bill down for Friday was that I was informed that possibly the Motion, of which notice has been given, would not be brought on, and so an opportunity offered for continuing the discussion on the Tithes Bill, but to meet the convenience of Members I shall be quite willing to postpone the further proceedings in Committee on the Tithes Bill until Monday, on the understanding that they will be completed on that day. I understand that an undertaking of that kind has been given.

(12.23.) SIR J. SWINBURNE (Staffordshire, Lichfield)

We cannot come to any arrangement of that kind.

(12.23.) MR. S. T. EVANS

With your leave, Sir, I may be allowed to say that so far as Welsh Members are concerned there is no desire to protract the Committee stage of the Bill beyond Monday. I said I saw no difficulty in finishing on that day, and I have since consulted with some of my hon. Friends and can confirm what I said, though of course I am unable to speak for the English Members.

(12.24.) SIR M. HICKS BEACH

Very well, Sir, that is quite enough for me. I am quite sure the hon. Member for Lichfield will not go against the general feeling.

MR. LABOUCHERE

But, Sir, may I be allowed to say——

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman has already spoken.

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Twelve o'clock.