§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, " That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill."
§ (2.30.) MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)I must protest against the practice which the Government have recently adopted of putting down Bills of this kind as the First Order of the Day at Morning Sittings. The Government ask hon. Members to give way at 12 o'clock at night, and having done so we find these Bills put down as the First Order on the next day, so that they may slip through without discussion. I look upon this as a most objectionable practice. The present Bill is a measure of great importance, and it contains many matters which are deserving of attention, but at present I do not wish to do more than raise a protest against the system. All I can say is, that if the Government intend to continue the same course, the result will be that hon. Members overnight will keep on their blocks, and the Government will not succeed in making progress with their business.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause 5 agreed to.
§ Clause 6.
§ Amendment proposed,
In page 6, line 20, after " detained," to insert "and any legal proceeding in relation to any such matter as aforesaid may be commenced by such service in the United Kingdom of any writ or process as may be prescribed by rules of Court."—(Sir J. Fergusson.)
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. T. M. HEALYAs these words deal with a special matter I think the Committee is entitled to some explanation of them.
§ THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir J. FERGUSSON, Manchester, N.E.)The whole effect of the Amendment is to give the same advantages to British as to foreign ships.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYIs it likely to result in a convention?
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONYes.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYWhen were the terms of the Convention submitted? I want to know whether any agreement has been come to as to the terms of this Amendment.
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONThe Convention has been weeks before the House. This Amendment was decided upon after the Bill was in print. It will be of advantage to British ships in giving a ready means of recovering damages against a foreign Mail steamer which may have' caused damage. I can assure the hon. and learned Member that all the provisions of the Bill have been most carefully considered.
§ MR. CHANCE (Kilkenny, S.)In the event of a foreign ship committing damage to a British ship, will the same summary mode of procedure apply?
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONCertainly. All the obligations in the Bill are reciprocal, and the object of the measure is to prevent the detention of a Mail ship when a claim is made by entering into a permanent Mail bond.
§ (2.35.) MR. T. M. HEALYThat being so I cannot help thinking that it is most injudicious to introduce this provision, for this reason—that England owns more ships than any other country, and it is not to the advantage of this country to have a provision of this kind made reciprocal. It will undoubtedly give foreigners a great advantage over us against the very slight advantage which we can possibly obtain from them.
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONOn the contrary, the provision will confer great advantages upon British interests over those which they at present enjoy. Hitherto, French mail ships have been free from arrest on account of their national character, but no British vessel will be placed under any disability not previously borne.
§ MR. CHANCEThis Amendment will enable any service to initiate proceedings. I have no doubt that the Judges would act with great discretion, but I think it would be desirable, as part of the service, to require some notice to be given to the Consulate of the country to which the ship belongs. 1 am sure that this must be intended, and that the omission is a mere slip. 484 Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consider the matter before the Report.
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONI shall be glad to consider it; but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that every line of the Bill has been most carefully considered by the legal advisers of the Crown. There is no need for the intervention of the Consul for the recovery of the damages, the parties having been heard in the suit.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONmoved, in page 6, line 21, after "shall," to insert "in accordance with Rules of Court."
§ Question, " That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ (2.38.) SIR J. FERGUSSONmoved, in page 6, line 27, at the end of the clause to add—
" Where the Commissioners of Customs, in pursuance of any Act or as a condition of waiving any forfeiture, require a deposit to be made by any exempted Mail ship to which this section applies, the amount of such deposit shall, on notice from the Commissioners of Customs, and without any further proceeding, be set apart out of the security as money belonging to the said Commissioners, and shall be paid and applied as they direct, and any Rules of Court relating to such notice, payment, or application shall be made with the consent of the Treasury.
§ Question, " That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 7 agreed to.
§ Clause 8.
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONmoved, in line 3, after "Scotland," to insert " and the Court in which it is recovered may reduce the amount of such fine."
§ Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted."
§ MR. T. M. HEALYI observe that so far as Scotland is concerned the Court is to have power to reduce the fine. Is that the present practice in Scotland?
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONIt is intended that the practice shall be common to the United Kingdom generally. The amount of the fine can now be reduced.
§ (2.40.) MR. T. M. HEALYIt may not be the case in the Scotch Law, but in Irish Acts it is customary to say any fine may be recovered not exceeding a certain sum. The Bill does not impose 485 upon the Scotch Courts the duty of inflicting a maximum fine; and why, therefore, insert these curious words, which will enable the Court to reduce the amount of the fine after it has been imposed?
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONThe word " Scotland " does not govern the proviso, it will apply to all the Courts of the Kingdom.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYThen the Bill is drafted in a very curious manner.
§ MR. CHANCEThe Amendment is open to two interpretations—first, that before judgment is given the Court, instead of imposing a fine of £50, may impose one of £40, £30, or £20; and, secondly, that after the Court has given judgment its jurisdiction shall not cease, but that it shall have the power to reduce the amount of the fine.
§ SIR J. FERGUSSONThe Amendment has been suggested by the Judges of the Court of Admiralty, and I think the House ought to consider that sufficient.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYOn the contrary, that is a reason which renders it suspicious, and, for my part, I protest against the manner in which Bills of this kind are brought in. It is most unfair, I think, to ask the right hon. Baronet to conduct such a Bill, and I beg to move that Progress be reported until the Attorney General can be present.
§ Question. " That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.