HC Deb 20 June 1890 vol 345 cc1592-4

Resolution [June 13th] reported, That it is expedient to authorise an additional Special Grant, out of monies to be provided by Parliament, to certain Elementary Schools, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session for making operative certain Articles of the Education Code, 1890.

(11.15.) MR. PICTON

I do not see the Vice President of the Committee of the Council in his place, but I wish to urge upon the Government the point I raised in Committee, namely, the permanent stigma that is being cast on teachers who have not passed through a training college. These teachers only count for 50 scholars, while those who have passed through a training college count for 60 scholars. I have shown how very strong is the feeling amongst teachers of this class. I have shown the unreasonable ness of setting up an arbitrary test of this kind in place of a practical test, and I think the point might be further considered. The only answer made by hon. Members opposite has been that if there is a deficiency of training college accommodation for Nonconformists, it is only for Nonconformists to put their hands in their pockets and build additional training colleges. That sounds very plausible; but hon. Members forget that Nonconformists have to put their hands in their pockets for a vast variety of objects which are already provided for members of the Established Church without any cost to themselves. Nonconformists have to build all their own places of worship and keep them up without any endowment provided for them by the State; and besides, the training colleges under the Church of England receive—

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Gentleman is now discussing the Code. This is only a formal Resolution. The Education Code is down on the Paper later.

MR. PICTON

I understand this is a Resolution to make special provision for items of the Code. I shall object to this Report being received by the House, unless I have some assurance that this matter will be further considered. I do not ask for a promise that I shall get all I require; but I do want a promise that the matter will be re-considered. The teachers feel themselves aggrieved by this odious distinction.

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Gentleman is quite out of order. He will be able to discuss this question when the Code Bill is before the House. This is purely a financial matter.

MR. PICTON

Then my only resource is to move the adjournment of the Debate. In the hope that I may get some explanation or assurance as to the application of this money, I beg to move the adjournment of the Debate.

MR. SPEAKER

It is unreasonable to move the adjournment of the Debate for the purpose of discussing a point that can only be discussed on the Code Bill, and, therefore, I hope the hon. Gentleman will not persevere with his Motion.

MR. ILLINGWORTH (Bradford, E.)

I think we are entitled to know from the Vice President of the Committee of the Council what are the particular items for which this grant is asked.

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir W. HART DIKE,) Kent, Dartford

This is purely formal. It is really to enable the House, later on in Committee, to provide the means for proposals in the Code Bill.

MR. T. M. HEALY

May I submit a question of order to you, Mr. Speaker? Let us take the case of the Budget Bill. That Bill goes through several stages. On the Budget Bill the different arrangements are discussed, with Mr. Courtney in the Chair. I presume this Resolution provides the ways and means by which the Bill can be worked. That being so, I would respectfully submit that on this Resolution it is in order to discuss the Code itself.

(11.22.) SIR W. HART DYKE

The necessity for the Resolution arises in this way. There is a proposal in the Code that certain grants shall be given for poor schools in rural districts, and this is the money clause.

MR. SYDNEY BUXTON

I think my hon. Friend (Mr. Picton) is labouring under a misapprehension. This does not touch the training colleges at all.

MR. T. M. HEALY

For the sake of safeguarding the rights of Members, I beg to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it would not be in order to discuss the clause of the Bill to which this Resolution relates?

MR. SPEAKER

No doubt it would be; but my observation was that this is not the Resolution on which the whole Bill is founded, but only a Resolution with regard to this particular clause.

Resolution agreed to.