§ MR. J. MORLEY (Newcastle-upon-Tyne)I think, Sir, it will be for the convenience of the House if you would now allow me to put to you a question concerning the first Order of the Day— whether you would now think fit to state to the House your view of the Instruction that I have put on the Paper with reference to that Order?
[Mr. Morley's Instruction was as follows:—
On Motion for going into Committee on Purchase of Land and Congested Districts-(Ireland) Bill, to move that it bean Instruction to the Committee, that they have power to make provision for the creation of Local Authorities, whose assent shall be necessary to-the imposition of any liability upon Local Revenues for the purposes of this Bill."]
§ MR. SPEAKERThe original Motion for the Instruction put down in the name of the right hon. Gentleman I thought was out of order, and the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to modify that and to put upon the Paper the Instruction as it now stands. I have had communication by letter and personally with the right hon. Gentleman, and I beg to acknowledge the impartiality with which he put forward his views in support of the Instruction now on the Paper. I have informed him that my difficulty has been as to the vagueness of the Instruction, both in regard to the power of limiting the Debate under its terms and the vagueness of the Instruction as affording no definite guidance to the Committee when they come to discuss clauses for the purpose of carrying it into effect. The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to explain the definite purposes with which he put the Instruction on the Paper; and it then occurred to me that the purposes which he wished to carry out under the Instruction might possibly be in the power of the Committee to effect without the necessity for an Instruction. Before, however, informing him of that view I communicated, as I thought it my duty to do, with the Chairman of Committees, who would have jurisdiction in the matter, and I am at liberty to say that right hon. Gentleman told me that in Committee it would be permissible for the Committee to introduce Amendments and clauses carrying out the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman as specified by himself. These objects are the creation either of a separate authority or of a composite body composed of Boards of Guardians, Grand Juries, or Presentment Sessions to watch the interests of the locality for fear lest liabilities should be incurred under the provisions of the Bill which it might be unwise to saddle on those localities. They would watch the interests of the localities, and they would, if they thought the bargain a bad one in individual cases, have the power of vetoing the transaction. These are the specific objects, I believe, as stated by the right hon. Gentleman, and I believe these objects might be carried out by Amendments or clauses in Committee. Under these conditions, and with that explanation, I have to say that the Instruction would be irregular, but 348 only irregular inasmuch as it would seek to empower the Committee to do that which in my opinion, and in the opinion, I may add, of the right hon. Gentleman the Chairman of Committees, it has perfect power to do.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONE (Edinburgh, Mid Lothian)Perhaps, Sir, you will allow me to put to you, not so much for immediate answer as for consideration, a question which arose, not out of the reply you have been good enough just now to give from the Chair, but out of the whole circumstances connected with Instructions which have recently occurred. They evidently show, what I think I am pretty well aware of in other ways, that there is a great uncertainty in the minds of many Members and very great obscurity on the subject of Instructions to Committees as to what can and what cannot be moved. I would ask you, Sir, to be good enough to consider whether it would be expedient to order a search to be made in the records of this House and a list to be prepared and circulated for the information of the House of the various Instructions to Committees that have been moved at various periods during the present reign. I do not know whether you will think fit to reply at the present moment; but, if not, I would request you to take the matter into consideration.
§ MR. SPEAKERI have naturally, within the last few weeks, given special attention to the whole subject, and if the right hon. Gentleman and the House will permit me I would like to state my views as explicitly as I can to the House. I have searched the precedents connected with Instructions. The House will, perhaps, be best put in the possession of my views on the subject when I say that there is a very vast and material difference between Instructions to a Committee and an Amendment on the Second Reading of a Bill, or of a Resolution on the Second Reading of a Bill which traverses the principle of the Bill. When a Bill has been read a second time the House has assented to the principle of the Bill. In the last few years a Standing Order has been passed stating that when the House is prepared to go into Committee the Speaker is to leave the Chair without Question put; but there is a reservation made with regard to Instructions to the Committee. It 349 would be obvious to the House that if an Instruction moved on that occasion "were to traverse the principle of the Bill, or go so far outside the limits and scope and framework of the Bill as to set up an alternative scheme, or a counter proposition to the Bill, that would virtually be a Second Reading Debate over again. It would be an Amendment to the principle of the Bill, and would therefore reduce to a minimum, and would nullify altogether, the provision which the House has passed in the Standing Order, which states that, when the House is prepared to go into Committee, I should leave the Chair at once without any Question put. There is nothing in the precedents, I believe, which go beyond an Instruction of this nature— an Instruction to amplify the machinery of the Bill to carry out the general purpose and scope of the Bill within the general framework and idea of the Bill. There is no Instruction that I am aware of—certainly not since the alteration in the Standing Order—which could be construed into the traversing of the principle of the SECOND READING of a Bill. I may be permitted to add that I attach importance in a high degree to the whole question of Instructions. It is no matter to me what Government is in power; but I say it in the interest of any body of gentlemen who may constitute the Government of the day, and I say it in the interests of every private Member who may have a Bill before the House, that if what I think, and I unhesitatingly say, is an abuse of Instructions, be carried much further, I believe it will be fatal to the transaction of business, not only by the Government, but by any individual Member who may be in charge of a Bill. I hope the House will forgive me for having spoken very frankly on the matter. I have no other interest at heart than the transaction of business in this House, and I believe the House will agree with me that various Instructions to carry out the principle of a Bill constitute a very different category altogether from Instructions by which it is sought to traverse the principle of the Bill and so resume the Debate which, in my opinion, ought to be settled on the conclusion of the Second Reading.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONEI hope, Mr. Speaker, you will kindly consider the 350 question I ventured to address to you with regard to the searching of the records and the production of the various Instructions.
§ MR. SPEAKERI think it would be rather an unusual proceeding for the Speaker to search for precedents and have them laid before the Members of the House. I should be happy, I am sure, to give every information in my power to the right hon. Gentleman, and I should be happy to lay all the precedents before him. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be content with that.
§ MR. W. E. GLADSTONEPerhaps it would be better that I should submit a Motion for the production of these precedents.
§ MR. J. MORLEYAfter what has-passed it is not improbable that MR. Speaker will leave the Chair on the first Order. I should like to ask whether the Government intend to proceed with the Bill this night?
§ MR. W. H. SMITHWe do not intend to proceed this evening with the Bill beyond going into Committee, and after the Speaker has left the Chair I shall move to report Progress.
§ MR. J. MORLEYWhat business will be taken to-morrow?
§ MR. W. H. SMITHWe shall take the Local Taxation Bill to-morrow.
§ MR. E. ROBERTSON (Dundee)I was not in the House when the Speaker gave his ruling. I have an Instruction on the Paper on the Land Purchase Bill, but I do not know whether the Speaker has said anything about it.
§ MR. SPEAKERThat Instruction is quite out of order, and quite beyond the scope of the Bill.