§ MR. MACNEILLI beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether a Member of this House was not permitted to have an interview with James Egan, a prisoner in the Convict Prison at Chatham, except in the presence and hearing of a warder, although such interview was granted at the convict's own request, whereas agents for the Times, and detectives in the service of the Times, were permitted to hold interviews with convicts both in Chatham Prison and other prisons in England, such interviews being unsolicited by the convicts, and held on some occasions in the presence, but not in the hearing, of a warder, and on other occasions out of the presence and hearing of a warder; and on what ground is the distinction of treatment of a Times agent and detective and the treatment of a Member of this House maintained?
§ MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORI also beg to ask the right hon. Genitleman, with reference to the case of Egan, whether he is aware that the warder in charge of the prisoner told the hon. Member for South Wexford, during his visit to Egan on Monday last, that "he (the warder) had received special instructions not to permit the slightest reference to the treatment of the prisoner," and by whom such special instructions were given; whether Egan solemnly protested that "it was a matter of life and death to him" to be allowed to refer to it; whether he is aware that the friends of the prisoner apprehend the most grave circumstances unless he allows a visit by some independent person in whom the prisoner will have confidence; and whether, considering the peculiar circumstances, he will now allow such a visit?
§ MR. MATTHEWSThe interview with James Egan, at Chatham, alluded to in the question, was subject to the practice which governs all ordinary visits, namely, that they take place in the presence and hearing of a prison officer. I am not aware of any exception having been made to this rule. Visits by solicitors on business are special visits. They are allowed to take place before conviction in the sight, but not in the hearing, of an officer; and in local prisons the Commissioners have, in their discretion, allowed similar visits after conviction. The visits of Mr. Soames to convicted prisoners at Chatham took place in the sight and hearing of the Deputy Governor. His agents saw some prisoners in a local prison in the sight, but out of the hearing, of the prison officers. I am not aware of any such visit having been held out of the sight of a prison officer. I have more than once explained in this House that a distinction is made by the Prison Authorities between ordinary visits and visits by solicitors on business, and this is the sole cause of the difference alluded to by the hon. Member. No special instructions were, so far as I know, given to the warder in charge of the prisoner with reference to the visit of the hon. Member for South Wexford. The general instructions given to all visitors are that reference to prison treatment is not allowed. Any complaint by a prisoner of his prison treatment should be 1378 addressed, not to an outside visitor, but to the Governor, or to the Prison Directors, or to the Secretary of State, or to the Visitors of the prison, who are perfectly independent, and who, a short time ago, made a special inquiry covering Egan's treatment. I have requested the Visiting Director to make immediate inquiry from Egan personally as to his complaints.
§ MR. A. O'CONNORIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member for South Wexford (Mr. J. Barry) sought to obtain from the prisoner in question a statement as to the treatment he received, but that the warder interrupted him, stating that he had received special instructions not to permit the slightest reference to the matter; that Egan then protested that it was a matter of life and death to him, and seemed greatly distressed, pressing his hand to his head. In view of the peculiar circumstances of this case, will the right hon. Gentleman consent to allow some person quite independent of the prison, not necessarily a Member of the House, but someone in whose discretion the right hon. Gentleman himself would have confidence, to have a private interview with the prisoner, and represent to the right hon. Gentleman the result of the interview, so that the impression which exists in the public mind regarding Egan's treatment may be removed?
§ MR. MATTHEWSI must remind the hon. Gentleman that only a short while ago a special inquiry was made into the prison treatment at Chatham, and with the result with which the hon. Member is, no doubt, acquainted. Inquiry will, however, be made into this subject, and if I find there is any difficulty in getting a full statement from Egan of his complaint, I will request some one not connected with the Service to hold an inquiry. But I must point out that it would be destructive to prison discipline if Members of Parliament or other persons outside were to make a claim to investigate these cases.
§ MR. J. O'CONNORIn the case of prisoners in Scotland, has it not been decided that they are entitled to additional letters in consequence of the difficulty of seeing them.
§ MR. J. O'CONNORI may remind the right hon. Gentleman that I have already put a question on the subject, and that he promised to make inquiry. I now ask him what the result of the inquiry is?
§ MR. MATTHEWSI do not remember the circumstance. If the hon. Member desires to have a correct answer, he had better put a question on the Paper.