§ MR. HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield, Central)I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if Her Majesty's Government have yet determined upon their recommendation as to the application of the extra taxation upon spirits, approved by this House in the belief that it would be utilised for the benefit of the contributors?
§ MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W.)I have also to ask the right hon. Gentleman to what purposes the Government propose to appropriate the sum of £40,000 allotted to Ireland as the Exchequer contribution in respect of Local Taxation Licences, and the sum of £40,000, the unallotted portion of the Irish share of the new Beer and Spirit Duties?
§ MR. GOSCHENSome misapprehension may possibly be conveyed by the wording of the question of my hon. and gallant Friend. He uses the word' "contributors," but a controversy may arise as to who the contributors really are, the distillers and brewers, or the-retailers, or the consumers. But there is the possibility of a further misapprehension. The extra taxation upon spirits and beer was not approved by the-House of Commons in the belief that the whole amount would be utilised for the benefit of the contributors, but with a proposal before it that one-third should be devoted to a certain purpose, an amount of £440,000, out of £1,304,000. If my hon. and gallant Friend's question is intended to suggest that, the purpose having failed, the tax ought to be repealed, the suggestion would only carry us to the repeal of one-third of the tax—namely, 2d. on spirits and 1d. on beer. Such a fractional repeal would, however, I have been given to understand, be unpalatable to those interested in the tax. It would disturb arrangements, contracts, price lists, &c, without, offering any appreciable relief. We, therefore, discard that solution of the application of the money set free. And further we shall abide by the principle-of this extra tax—namely, that it shall be devoted to local purposes spread over the whole country. This precludes the adoption of the suggestion contained in the question put by the hon. Member for Camborne to the First Lord of the 343 Treasury that a large portion should be devoted to purchasing the Crystal Palace for the nation. I Will now state what we propose as regards England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively. As regards England we propose to add the amount set free by the abandoned licensing clauses to the residue which, under the Bill as it stands, goes to the County Councils, accompanying this inclusion by an intimation that possibly new charges may, by-and-by, be put upon them, with reference to intermediate, technical, or agricultural education. It seems very desirable, if more is to be done in this respect, that the localities, and especially County Councils, should be interested in the work. In England there is at present little machinery available for carrying out such an object, and it would be impossible to create such a machinery at this period of the Session. But in Wales and in Monmouthshire the machinery does exist. County Councils may supply funds to the Joint Committee for intermediate education under the Act of last year out of the county rate, but to the extent of a halfpenny of such rates only. We shall propose that the County Councils in Wales should have authority to increase the sum out of the additional funds now placed at their disposal. As regards the £50,000 which falls to the share of Scotland, we also propose that the amount set free should go to the County Councils. The House will bear in mind, that while in England and Ireland much has been done for the ratepayer, so far in Scotland the ratepayer has scarcely had any advantage whatever out of the revision of local taxation, and it seems but just that his case should receive some consideration. As regards Ireland, we shall propose that the £40,000 which falls to her share should be utilised for the further promotion of intermediate education, and for this purpose should be placed at the disposal of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland, a body which, I believe, commands the confidence of the Irish public generally, irrespective of political and religious differences.
§ * MR. HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield, Central)May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will consider the revision of this extra taxation in his next year's Budget?
§ MR. BUCHANAN (Edinburgh, W.)Do the same reservations apply to Scotland as to England?
§ MR. GOSCHENNo, Sir; there is no such reservation.
§ MR. BUCHANANWill it simply become a part of the residue under the Bill?
§ MR. GOSCHENYes, Sir.
§ MR. SEXTONTo what purposes do the Government propose to appropriate the sum of £40,000 allotted to Ireland, and the sum of £40,000, the un-allotted portion of the Irish share of the new Beer and Spirit Duties?
§ MR. GOSCHENThe £40,000 allotted to Ireland as a set-off against the gain derived by England and Scotland from the excess of licences received over grants dropped, we propose to devote to assisting the Irish Local Authorities who have taken action, or should hereafter take action, under the Irish Labourers' Dwellings Acts of 1882 and 1885.
§ MR. A. ACLAND (York, W.R., Rotherham)Are the English County Councils to be allowed to use the money for intermediate and technical education, or do the Government only express an opinion that some day they may have to do so? With reference to Wales I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the County Councils there are to be directed to use this money to help the intermediate education which now exists, or whether they are only to be allowed to do so if they choose to pass a vote to that effect?
§ MR. SINCLAIR (Falkirk Burghs)Will it be competent to the County Councils in Scotland to devote their share, or any part of it, for the purposes of education?
§ MR. GOSCHENNo, Sir. I believe it would not be possible for them to devote any part of that sum to purposes to which, by law, they cannot apply them. I am aware that the desire of a good many Scotch members is that this money should be devoted to setting education entirely free in Scotland; but that would have to be done by legislation. With regard to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Rotherham, I have explained that at this period of the Session it would be impossible to set up machinery for technical and intermediate education in England. The money will be placed at the disposal of the English County Councils, but an intimation will be given 345 to them which may guide them so that they may not spend it in a manner which would seem to stereotype in any way that payment to them. It will be pointed out to them that charges may, in the future, be put upon them in regard to intermediate education. It will be rather in the nature of a warning to them not to employ the money in such a manner as might imply the permanency of the payment.
§ MR. A. ACLANDWhat is to be done about Wales?
§ MR. GOSCHENThey will not receive any direction. They have the authority to use the money in that way. I would ask hon. Members whether it would not be better to wait until they see our proposals, embodied in the new clauses, as, in answering questions across the Table, I might be guilty of some slip, which might lead to misunderstanding by-and-by.