HC Deb 13 August 1890 vol 348 cc923-8

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the present financial relations between England, Scotland, and Ireland, and to report—

  1. (1.) The amount and proportion of revenue contributed to the Exchequer by the people of England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively;
  2. (2.) The amount and proportion of revenue which under recent legislation is paid to local authorities in England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively;
  3. (3.) The amount and proportion of moneys expended out of the Exchequer; (a) upon civil and local government services for the special use of; and (b) upon collection of revenue in England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively;
  4. (4.) The amount and proportion of State Loans outstanding, and of State Liabilities incurred for local purposes in 924 England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively;
  5. (5.) How far the financial relations established by the sums so contributed, paid, advanced, or promised, or by any other existing conditions, are equitable, having regard to the resources and population of England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exch qver).

(10.32) MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I beg to move the Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Glamorgan, to insert after "England" the words "Wales (including Monmouthshire)." I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accept the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, after the word "England," to insert the words "Wales (including Monmouthshire)."— (Mr. Lloyd-George.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

*(10.32.) THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN, St. George's, Hanover Square)

It would not be possible for the Government to accept this Amendment. We cannot treat Wales as a separate financial entity, nor would it be to the advantage of Wales to be so treated; and I would point out that only a short time ago it became necessary to make a separate arrangement, financially, with Scotland and Ireland, but that Wales was not considered in the matter. I see no reason why Wales should be treated separately, and even if the Amendment were carried it could not have the effect the hon. Member probably desires, as we could not undertake to establish separate relations as between England and Wales.

(10.33.) MR. RANDALL (Glamorgan, Gower)

I trust, notwithstanding what has fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he will see his way clear to extend the terms of the Reference, so as to include Wales specifically. There is an impression abroad in the Principality that as regards our financial relations in comparison with Ireland and Scotland, Wales suffers. There can be no harm whatever in including Wales, so that we know exactly where we stand, and although the Chancellor of the Exchequer is of opinion that Wales might suffer if we investigated this matter, I think it would be satisfactory to the Principality to know the real state of the facts.

(10.34.) MR. T. M. HEALY

Perhaps the hon. Member will receive a suggestion. If he cannot obtain what he desires by this Amendment, the information he seeks may be obtained by having an interchange of Welsh Members on the Committee. I see there is a very distinguished Welsh Member on the Committee, but perhaps another, a Liberal Member, might be exchanged for a Conservative Member, and vice versa.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I am afraid I must press the Amendment.

(10.35.) The House divided:—Ayes 22; Noes 50.—(Div. List, No. 250.)

(10.42.) SIR G. CAMPBELL

I have put an Amendment on the Paper in order to elicit some sympathetic statement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I put a question to him in the House asking if he would consent to give us the figures promised by the Revenue Department, distinguishing the Metropolis from other parts of the kingdom in these matters. I thought that he would consent to do this, as a matter of course, but much to my surprise he gave me a point blank refusal. It seems to me that what I propose is the merest justice, and the crux of the whole question as regards Ireland and Scotland. The Metropolis is the common centre. An enormous number of payments are made in London on account of foreign investments, Indian pensions, and so on. Enormous sums are received by Scotchmen, London being in many respects the capital of Scotland. There is more Scotch money in London than in Edinburgh, and, under the circumstances, I think we should be allowed to have the information for which I ask. The sympathies of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not appear to be at all with Scotland.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, after the word "respectively," to insert the words "regard being had to the payments made in the Metropolis as a common centre."—(Sir George Campbell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

*(10.45.) MR. GOSCHEN

I have done more for finance in Scotland than any of my predecessors, and I am prepared to take the responsibility the hon. Member suggests of refusing his Amendment. Any figures representing the Metropolis as a separate financial unit would be misleading.

Question put, and negatived.

Main Question again proposed.

(10.46.) MR. SEXTON

I think the terms of the Reference are unduly restricted. I suppose we may expect to have the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the chair, and I have no doubt the terms of the Reference will be strictly construed by him. The main object of the Committee I take to be the fixing and adjusting from time to time of fair proportions of the contributions of Ireland and Scotland to Imperial purposes. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will agree that even after the contribution has been fixed it may be deranged by the increase of certain taxes, by the diminution of certain taxes, or by the distribution of the Budget surplus. That being so it will be necessary for the Committee to make, to some extent, a retrospective inquiry on these three points. If the present Reference will allow of such an inquiry I should be satisfied, but if the Reference is to be strictly construed I fear it will greatly embarrass the Committee. Then I think the first clause of sub-head 3, and the whole of sub-head 4 are irrelevant. I say, however much you expend on Civil and Military Service in Ireland, you are not able to raise from Ireland a greater Revenue than she is able to afford. I object to the inclusion of population as a factor. The conditions of Ireland on the one hand, and Great Britain on the other, are so different that the introduction of population as a factor is entirely misleading. At the time of the famine, Ireland had double the population she has now; but her contribution to Imperial taxation was much smaller than it is now. The Reference, therefore, to my mind, is in part irrelevant, in part too restricted, and in part misleading.

*(10.53.) MR. GOSCHEN

From the beginning; I have held that the object of this inquiry is not to be retrospective, that is to say, to see whether Scotland or Ireland has paid too much or too little in the past, but that the object is to see whether Scotland or Ireland should be relieved of any portion of the taxation they now pay. Should I occupy the chair on the Committee, I should endeavour to be as equitable as possible, bat I cannot hold out any hope that the inquiry will have an historical retrospect.

(10.54.) MR. SEXTON

I do not desire that we should inquire as to whether Ireland has at any time paid too much, but that the general course of policy as to the imposition and distribution of taxation should be examined.

*(10.54.) MR. GOSCHEN

That would mean what I describe as an historical retrospect. My object is more practical, namely, to see if there should be any alteration of existing burdens. The power of a country to pay taxation must to a large extent depend on numbers. I trust all these matters will be threshed out in Committee, and I hope I shall be able to show the hon. Member that the Reference is neither unfair, irrelevant, or misleading.

(10.56.) MR. A. O'CONNOR

It affords great satisfaction to the Irish Members to see the willingness of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to agree to the appointment of this Committee, but, as my hon. Friend has shown, in two respects the terms of the Reference to the Committee are very misleading. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Committee will not have such power of casting a glance backward as will enable them to properly appreciate and understand existing circumstances. If you take the circumstances of to-day only, without reference to the circumstances which have induced them, it is possible that you may have a very erroneous and one-sided view of the relations between the two countries. I submit that to inquire merely into— ''The amount and proportion of moneys expended out of the Exchequer; (a) upon civil and Local Government services for the special use of; and (b) upon collection of Revenue in England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively is to limit the matter too much, and to leave out of consideration a very material element, namely, the Army and Navy Services. It is with regard especially to the Navy that the inequality of taxation between England and Ireland is most marked. If you are to inquire only into expenditure in regard to Civil and Local Government, you will be evidently taking a very partial view, and I would suggest that in this matter the terms of the Reference should be extended, in order that we may take into view the whole of the National expenses.

(10.58.) DR. CLARK

We must take into view that certain monies in England are derived from the Imperial Exchequer, whereas in Scotland they come from local sources.

MR. GOSCHEN

Account will be taken of that.

DR. CLARK

Under the circumstances, although I was formerly opposed to the Motion, I think we might very well agree to it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Committee appointed.

Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Twenty-one Members. Committee nominated of,—Mr. John Morley. Mr. Arthur Balfour, Mr. Childers, Lord Randolph Churchill, Mr. Henry H. Fowler, Mr. Baring, Mr. Campbell-Bannerman, Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland, Mr. Sexton, Sir Richard Temple, Mr. Sinclair, Dr. Cameron, Sir Matthew Ridley, Mr. T. W. Russell, Mr. Dillon, Mr. Bristowe, Mr. James William Lowther, Mr. Stuart Rendel, Mr. Arthur O'Connor, Mr. Jackson, and Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records. Ordered, That Five be the quorum.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

It being after Six of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put.

House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.