MR. GLADSTONE (Mid Lothian)I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, a direct issue of fact having been raised between the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and the Lord Mayor of Dublin in relation to the prison treatment of Mr. W. O'Brien, and an inquiry into this matter by Committee of the House having been proposed by the Lord Mayor of Dublin and rejected by Her Majesty's Government on the ground, not that the inquiry is improper, but that the organ is inappropriate, Her Majesty's Government will propose an inquiry by what they may deem an appropriate organ?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe inquiry by Committee was rejected on the ground that the instrument was inappropriate; but even if an appropriate instrument were provided (not a very easy matter) it would not follow that the inquiry should be grauted. The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that conflicts of this kind on matter of fact have been frequent under many Administrations, and that the mere occurrence of such a conflict has not been, and could not be, thought in most cases an adequate reason for setting in motion the 47 elaborate machinery necessary for an inquiry on oath. But in order that the right hon. Gentleman may have an opportunity of estimating the evidence on which my statements were founded, I propose to lay Papers on the Table of the House, which I feel sure he would wish to see before asking for an inquiry, or otherwise associating himself with the doubts expressed by the Lord Mayor of Dublin.
§ MR. SEXTONWith reference to the reply of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian, I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary whether the machinery necessary for inquiry is not already created by the 11th section of the Irish Prisons Act, 1877? I for one do not intend to suffer him again in my presence to impute untruths to the hon. Member for North-East Cork and others, including myself, with regard to statements which we know to be true, and which we have offered to prove. I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is willing, as the Prisons Board is bound by statute, to direct them to hold such an inquiry as contemplated by the section, upon oath, and to allow each of the prisoners to be represented by counsel, and the Press to be admitted?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURI must correct one statement of the hon. Member. He appears to think that whenever I make an assertion in this House upon information given to me with regard to matters of fact, and whenever hon. Members opposite happen to differ from that statement, I am giving them the lie. I made no such statement against the hon. Gentleman or his Friends below the Gangway. With regard to his request that there should be an inquiry on oath, I was not aware that the kind of inquiry granted by the section would satisfy hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, or was the inquiry to which the question of the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian pointed. If it would satisfy them, that would put an entirely different complexion on the matter.
§ MR. SEXTONOur side of the case rests upon the statement made by the hon. Member for North-East Cork to my hon. Friends the Mayor of Clonmel 48 and the Member for North Longford (Mr. T. M. Healy). I, therefore, ask whether the right hon. Gentleman intends to go on imputing untruths to hon. Members of this House? [Cries of "Order."]
§ MR. SEXTONWill the right hon. Gentleman grant an inquiry? [Cries of"Order" and "Withdraw."] I am quite in order. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will grant an inquiry. [Renewed cries of"Withdraw" and "Order."] Withdraw what? I withdraw nothing. Will the right hon. Gentleman grant an inquiry?
§ *MR. SPEAKERI am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will agree with the propriety of the remark which I made to him from the Chair. All I said was that a charge of imputing untruth is not Parliamentary.
§ MR. SEXTONWill the right hon. Gentleman grant an inquiry under the Prisons Act (Ireland), 1877? Will he make such an inquiry effective by having it on oath, with both parties represented by counsel and the Press admitted?
§ MR. A. J. BALFOUROf course I cannot off-hand answer a proposal of that kind. Before I give an answer to that question I should like to know whether an inquiry of that kind would meet the views which I understand are held by the right hon. Gentleman opposite and by hon. Members below the Gangway.
MR. GLADSTONEAlthough I entirely dissent from the grounds upon which the objection has been taken to an inquiry by a Parliamentary Committee, yet, undoubtedly, any inquiry which fully brings out the facts will meet my views, and, I believe, those of the Lord Mayor of Dublin. As reference has been made to conversations which took place, I may ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is in his recollection—as it certainly is distinctly in mine—that he described statements made by the Lord Mayor of Dublin by the phrase "calumny."
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURMy memory does not carry me back to that particular speech to which the right hon. Gentleman refers; but I think it is very likely that I have in this House—certainly out of it—described the attacks to which I 49 have been subjected on the question of prison discipline as calumny.