THE SPECIAL COMMISSION.

HC Deb 01 March 1889 vol 333 cc710-7

MR. T. M. HEALY (Longford, N.)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the following Question: Did Head Constable Preston visit the prisoners James Mullett and Patrick Nally in Millbank; if so, on what business; how did he secure access to them; and by whose orders was admission granted; were those men brought over from Ireland by judicial process; and, if so, what was it; was there in Millbank, or any English gaol, a prisoner named Tracy brought over from Ireland since the Times Commission began; would he state what was his sentence and offence; by what process and at whose instance was his removal from an Irish prison obtained; was Tracy visited by Head Constable Preston; and under what circumstances was the visit obtained?

MR. M'CARTAN

had on the paper the following Question:—To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he can state on what date Thomas Tracy, a bail prisoner now in Millbank Prison, was removed from Belfast Gaol to Millbank, and by what authority he was removed; whether he was accompanied from Belfast by a prison warder, who still remains here; whether he will give the names of the persons who visited him since his arrival, and by whom, and for what purpose the application to visit was made in each case; whether and how often Tracy has been visited by Head Constable Preston, of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and if Preston visited him on behalf of the Times to procure evidence for the Special Commission; and whether there is any limit to the time during which a prisoner from an Irish gaol, alleged to be required as a witness in a trial here, may be kept in a prison in England without being produced at such trial?

MR. MATTHEWS

I will answer the Question of the hon. Member for North Longford and that of the hon. Member for South Down at the same time. Mullett and Nally were not visited by Head Constable Preston. They were brought over from Ireland under order of the Special Commission for the purpose of giving evidence. A prisoner named Tracy is in Millbank. His offence was making use of threatening language, and his sentence was to find bail to keep the peace and be of good behaviour for 12 months, or in default to be imprisoned for that time. The removal of Tracy took place, I understand, under similar circumstances to that of Mullett and Nally. He was accompanied by a prison warder, who still remains here. He has been twice visited by Mr. Preston, in pursuance of a request of Mr. Soames. The purpose of the application to visit was not stated. These visits were allowed in accordance with the ordinary rules. I am not aware of any limit of time during which a prisoner may be detained if his presence is required by the Court.

MR. T. M. HEALY

I wish to ask whether it is the view of the Government that a subpoena from the High Court has the effect of a habeas corpus, and that it withdraws prisoners from the gaols, and compels their production in Courts of Law in England?

MR. MATTHEWS

I must ask for notice of that Question.

SIR W. HARCOURT (Derby)

I understand the Home Secretary to say that this prisoner was visited by Preston, agent for Mr. Soames, the solicitor for the Times. Was that under an order of the Commission? I want to understand by what practice of prisons in England Mr. Soames, the solicitor to the Times, had a right to send an agent in to a prisoner to communicate with him in the prison?

MR. MATTHEWS

The Question refers to Tracy. Tracy is a surety prisoner, and, according to the ordinary prison rules, he is entitled to receive a visit, I think once a week, and the practice of the Prison Commissioners in England is, with that frequency and not more, to admit any solicitor or other visitor to see a prisoner, provided the prisoner does not object to see him.

SIR W. HARCOURT

Do I understand from the Home Secretary that the visits made by friends of the prisoner under these rules are construed to mean a visit of an Irish constable under the order of a solicitor?

MR. MATTHEWS

There is nothing in the rules to prevent an Irish constable from visiting any prisoner.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Has the attention of the Chief Secretary for Ireland been called to the answer of the Home Secretary—namely, that Preston, an Irish constable, at the instance of Mr. Soames, as private solicitor for a paper called the Times, and acting under his instructions, visited a particular prisoner, and took his statement? I wish to know how that came to be, and what it is that brings Head Constable Preston to London?

MR. MATTHEWS

The hon. Member has mistaken my answer. The person I mentioned who came as the representative of Mr. Soames was a visitor of Tracy, and not Mullett.

MR. T. M. HEALY

How comes it that Head Constable Preston, an Irish constable, at the instance of Mr. Soames, visits any prisoner?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I do not see, on the face of it, the cogency of the Question. The hon. Gentleman ought to put the Question on the Paper.

SIR W. HARCOURT

I do not wish to misunderstand the Home Secretary. Do I understand him to say that this constable visited Tracy at his (Tracy's) own request and desire, which is what is meant by the prison rules?

MR. MATTHEWS

I have no information on that subject.

MR. M'CARTAN

Was the application made by Mr. Soames or by Preston, and was Preston's interview in the presence of a warder or not?

MR. A. B. WINTERBOTHAM (Gloucester, Cirencester)

I wish to ask whether any private solicitor, practising in England, may employ a constable to visit a prisoner for the purpose of getting evidence?

MR. MATTHEWS

The application to visit was made by Mr. Soames. In regard to the person whom the solicitor employed, solicitors are not, of course, entitled to the services of police constables while they are on duty.

MR. M'CARTAN

Did the visit take place in the presence of a warder?

MR. MATTHEWS

I am not informed whether the interview was in the presence of a warder.

MR. T. M. HEALY

I wish to know whether you can inform me that a warrant or subpoena from the Special Commission can produce Irish prisoners from the Irish gaols practically without habeas corpus? I wish to know whether we can see these orders? Are they at the Home Office, or at any place where inspection can be had, or has Mr. Soames got them?

MR. MATTHEWS

The Home Office acts at the request of the Lords Justices of Ireland. The only information I have from the Lord Lieutenant is to inform me that certain persons were required to be witnesses in England, and I was requested to name an officer to receive them and keep them in safe custody while here.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Is there power under the Special Commission to issue habeas corpus?

MR. MATTHEWS

I am afraid I must ask for notice of that Question. As I read the Act, I think it is clear that the Special Commissioners have the same powers as a Judge of any of the High Courts of Justice.

MR. SEXTON (Belfast, W.)

I wish to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any officials of the British Museum agreed to give evidence in the Special Commission Court of the genuineness of the letters now admitted to be forgeries; if so, who those officials were; upon what terms they agreed to give such evidence; and whether the acceptance of such engagements was compatible with their official obligations?

MR. JACKSON

The Treasury has no information, nor have I, of the circumstances referred to in the hon. Member's Question; but I have learnt from the authorities of the British Museum that two members of the staff were consulted on behalf of the Times as experts. They acted, however, entirely in their private capacity, and entirely in their own time.

MR. SEXTON

I will call attention to the subject on the Vote.

SIR W. HARCOURT

I would ask the Home Secretary on whose authority MR. Robert Anderson handed confidential papers in his possession, in his official capacity, to a man calling himself Le Caron (a witness for the Times newspaper), to be taken away by him and examined and used by Le Caron and Mr. Houston?

MR. MATTHEWS

Mr. Anderson's action in the matter referred to by the right hon. Gentleman was without my cognizance; but, so far as I am acquainted with the circumstances of the case, he acted in accordance with what was due to the Special Commission. I am informed that Mr. Anderson has been summoned as a witness before the Commission, and his evidence will no doubt fully explain his conduct.

SIR W. HARCOURT

Did the Commission direct Mr. Anderson to hand over confidential papers to Le Caron through Houston?

MR. MATTHEWS

No, Sir. I conveyed nothing of the kind, and did not intend to say anything of the kind.

SIR W. HARCOURT

Then he did hand over the papers without authority from the Commission or the Home Secretary.

MR. MATTHEWS

I have nothing to add to the answer I gave.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

I do not wish the Home Secretary to add anything. I ask him to say something.

MR. H. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

I beg to ask the Attorney General whether the following words are correctly reported in "Hansard," vol. 329, p. 426, as used by him in debate upon the Parnell Commission Bill, second reading, July 24, 1888:— That whole case (the 'O' Donnell v. Walter' suit) which I opened, I was prepared to prove, and if I am counsel for the Times again, shall be prepared to prove. The evidence (is) available when it is wanted, but I should be unworthy of my position if I allowed myself to use it for any other purposes. And whether, in his opening speech in the case of "O'Donnell v. Walter," he did not include the fac simile letter now proved to have been a forgery? I will supplement that by the following:—Whether he took any steps to repudiate responsibility thrust upon him by his client, Mr. Walter, in the article in the Times of July 7, which stated that these charges against Mr. Parnell were formulated by the head of the English Bar, which was a guarantee that in his judgment he was able to prove what he says?

SIR R. E. WEBSTER

With regard to the last Question put to me, and of which the hon. Member did not give me the slightest notice, it is impossible for me to answer it. I have not seen the article; but I will look at it and answer on Monday. With regard to the Question on the Paper, the quotation from Hansard is, I believe, accurate, but the hon. Member must be kind enough to refer to the passage immediately preceding that quoted, in which I stated distinctly that I had no information whatever except that given me as counsel for the Times, and I referred, as the extract clearly shows, to the evidence which, as such counsel, I was prepared to lay before the Court, and neither directly nor indirectly did I express any opinion of my own. I must be allowed to add that, though the date of my speech is correctly given, I did not speak for or against the Bill, but simply spoke in answer to personal observations made against me by members of my own profession.

SIR W. HARCOURT

asked the First Lord of the Treasury by what Department of the Government the officers of the Irish Constabulary in London have been placed at the disposal of the Times newspaper, and how it comes that Chief Constable Gallagher and Sergeant Faw-cett received and obeyed orders given to them by Mr. Shannon, an agent for the Times newspaper, as deposed to by those officers in Court on the 26th of February?

MR. W. H. SMITH

No instructions of the kind indicated have been given by any Department, nor have any orders been given to the constables named, or any others by an agent of the Times. Mr. Shannon, as the Chief Secretary for Ireland stated yesterday, requested these men to go to the same hotel as Pigott and prevent him from being mobbed or otherwise annoyed—a course which, if proper in itself, as I think it was, certainly does not become improper because the man Pigott has been proved to be a scoundrel. I would add that both the constables named are in London in consequence of a subpoena served on them.

SIR W. HARCOURT

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has quite appreciated my Question. I do not think his answer touches it in any respect. How came the Irish constable to be directed by Mr. Shannon in any way or to do anything, and why did he say, in his sworn evidence, that he was ordered by Mr. Shannon, and went in consequence of those orders? Those are the words given—that the constables acted upon the orders of Mr. Shannon. I ask, How is it that Irish constables are acting, according to their own testimony, under the orders of the agents of the Times?

MR. W. H. SMITH

The right hon. Gentleman asks me a Question as to evidence given in a Court of Law. The way to obtain that information as to the evidence is by cross-examination in the Court. I have stated the information of which I am in possession, and for which I am responsible, and I can give the right hon. Gentleman no other answer.

SIR W. HARCOURT

With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I would say that the place is here. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether these officers, in obeying the orders of the agents of the Times, were so doing with the authority and knowledge of the Government.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I say distinctly no, Sir. If the right hon. Gentleman will read the answer I have given tomorrow morning he will see that I distinctly negatived any suggestion of the kind.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Will there be any difficulty in giving us a Return of the number of Irish police constables and officers who have been in London at the service of the Times since the Commission began, and how many days they have remained in London? I observed to-day in Court a sub-inspector who was examined two months ago, and who, I am told, has been here ever since.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I am not aware that anyone has been in attendance in London in the service of the Times. Any persons here in that capacity, so far as we know, are here on the subpoena of the Court.

MR. T. M. HEALY

Then I ask whether it was on a subpoena of the Court that Preston visited Tracy in Millbank Prison?

MR. W. H. SMITH

I am not aware of what visits are made to the prisons. My right hon. Friend has explained the circumstances. Visits are not made on subpoenas. I have no other information, and I can give him no opinion on the subject.

MR. H. P. COBB (Warwick, S.E., Rugby)

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the courtyard in front of Mr. Soames's office in Lincoln's Inn Fields has been crowded for weeks with constables from Ireland, many of whom were lolling about and smoking cigars?

MR. W. H. SMITH

No, Sir. I am not aware of the fact.

MR. COBB

It is a fact.

MR. T. M. HEALY

I will on Monday put down a Motion for a Return of the number of constables deported from Ireland and placed at the service of the Times; and also ask how long they have been allowed to remain in London?

MR. J. C. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

Was not Sergeant Fawcett examined weeks ago when he was brought from his duties in Cork, and have not he and a number of other constables boasted of the large expenses allowed by the Times?

MR. W. H. SMITH

No, Sir. I have no information.