BOARD OF AGRICULTURE BILL. (No. 285.) (Hansard, 27 June 1889)

§ SIR R. PAGET (Somerset, Wells)
I beg to trove the omission from Clause I of all the words after the word "Scotland" to the end of the first subsection. As it stands the clause seems to be of a somewhat misleading character, and it is with the desire of making it clearer that I propose to remove these words. I have already, in the Committee on the Bill, received from my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. H. Smith) the clearest assurance that the Board is not to be a consultative body, but is to be one analagous to the Local Government Board, and that the President is to be a responsible Minister, who cannot shelter himself behind the opinions or decisions of the members of the Board. My object is to secure that there shall be no doubt whatever in the matter, and that we shall have virtually a responsible Minister acting by himself and not even assisted by a consultative Board.

§ * THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH,) Strand, Westminster
I do not know whether my hon. Friend wishes me to repeat the assurance I gave the Committee last Monday. If a Member of the Government repeats assurances he has given, it seems to me he almost weakens the force of the statements he has previously made. The House is generally prepared to accept a positive statement and engagement made by a Member of the Government on his responsibility; and I can only say I adhere to every word I used on Monday as to the absolute personal responsibility of the President of the Board. These words are not intended and shall not have the effect of lessening in any degree the responsibility of the President. It is not intended that by the admission of any other persons to this Board the President shall be able, in the slightest degree, to shelter himself from or relieve him- 902 self of that responsibility which is placed on him by this Bill, and which he will receive under the same conditions as the President of the Board of Trade and the Local Government Board receive theirs. There are other reasons why this power of associating other members with him should exist. In order, however, to guard against the danger which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) referred to the other day, I propose to insert these words after the word "pleasure"— Provided that the Board shall not be entitled to act unless the President or some one of the officers of State above-mentioned is present. The result will be that no official act of the Board can be done without the presence of a responsible minister. There may sometimes be reason for sudden and immediate action, and these words will prevent anything being done except with the consent of a responsible minister.

§ MR. HENEAGE (Great Grimsby)
I am quite willing to accept in perfectly good faith any expression of opinion which falls from the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, but the right hon. Gentleman can only answer for the course of procedure of the present Government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. Gladstone) established a Committee with a Vice President in this House, the object being that the Vice President should be responsible, but for the last two years we have had a state of things under which there is no responsible Minister in this House. The Vice President in charge of agriculture has become an absolute myth. He is a Member of the other House, and whether he does any work in the Committee on Agriculture we do not know. It would be perfectly fair for any future Government to read this Act in such a way that any Member of the Board might do the work of the President in his absence. I must say I do not think the Government are carrying out the undertaking given the other night to the effect that the President of the Board would be the Minister solely responsible, if we are to have a provision that the Board may meet and transact business in the absence of the President. If the words proposed be adopted, we shall be in exactly the same position as 903 we were in the first instance. Of course, after what has taken place, one is helpless in the matter. I received the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman in Committee, and I accepted it in perfect good faith, but it seems to me that if these words are accepted the Minister at any possible time may be utterly irresponsible.

§ SIR R. PAGET
The assurance of my right hon. Friend is so clear and so pronounced that, though I myself should infinitely prefer to leave these words out, I shall not press my Amendment to a division.

§ * MR. W. H. SMITH
I may be allowed to assure the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Heneage) that these words have been most carefully drawn, and will, I believe, be sufficient for the purpose, but if it should be found that anything has been omitted a change can be made in another place.

§ MR. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen, East)
I accept the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman in all good faith, but I would ask whether, if the President is present, but does not agree with the decision of the Board, such decision will be an act of the Board.

§ MR. H. H. FOWLER (Wolverhampton, East)
I understand that it is not contemplated for a moment that the Board shall control or interfere with the responsible Minister in the sense of a consultative body. I take it that the Minister for Agriculture will be as supreme in his own Department as the Presidents of the Board of Trade or Local Government Board are in theirs. I understand the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord to say that anybody who is put on the Board is to have really no executive power or responsibility at all. I think my right hon. Friend (Mr. Heneage) and the hon. Gentleman opposite may accept the proposed alteration as really, substantially, and, I think, wisely carrying out the intentions they have in view.

§ * MR. W. H. SMITH
An undertaking was given on Monday that we would consider whether "all" should be substituted for "such" in the 8th Section. We think it would be better to keep the wording of the clause as it is,

§ MR. JEFFREYS (Hants, Basingstoke)
I wish to ask whether the new Board will take over the supervision of the new Inspectors?

§ * THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,) Bristol, W.
That will be considered, if necessary, under the provisions of the Bill, which enable such matters to he transferred.

§ * MR. W. H. SMITH
I do not know whether the House will consent to the Third Reading of the Bill being taken now. There is practically no difference of opinion in the House upon the measure.