HC Deb 30 July 1889 vol 338 cc1725-39

Further proceedings on consideration as amended.

SIR GEORGE TREVELYAN (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

In Clause 16 it is indicated that Dundee College shall form part of St. Andrew's University, but these words are omitted from Clause 15, and it might be construed from the omission that the affiliation of colleges with Glasgow or Edinburgh University is intended to be of a weaker and looser character than that of St. Andrew's and Dundee. Therefore I move the Amendment which stands in my name.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 15, page 14, line 14, after the word "them," to insert the words "and by making such colleges form part of such Universities."—(Sir George Trevelyan.)

THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. P. B. ROBERTSON,) Bute

The right hon. Gentleman is quite right in the inferences he draws from the insertion of these special words in Clause 16. In that case Dundee is specially marked out for a particular kind of affiliation. The matter was very carefully considered before the words were inserted, but I do not think it would be well to apply the same principle to the other colleges and Universities. On the contrary, I hold that our general object would be better served by leaving the clause as it now stands.

SIR GEORGE TREVELYAN

I do not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR GEORGE TREVELYAN

My next Amendment refers to a much more serious matter, and I shall be obliged to press it unless the Lord Advocate shows me good reasons against it. Of course, my object—and the object of those who think with me—in regard to the affiliation of colleges, is to make these colleges an integral part of the University, and to make their members members of the University in every sense, both educational and sentimental. Now, I should like to know from the Lord Advocate whether the students in an affiliated college would have the privileges of students at present in the University, whether they would be admitted to their associations, whether they would be able to take part in the election of the Rector and the Students' Representative Council, whether they would have entrance to the University Libraries and Museums as a matter of right, and whether they would be able to compete for University bursaries and scholarships. If the students could not enjoy these privileges, then the affiliation means very little indeed. It means nothing except the mere power of obtaining a degree. And it would appear to me on the surface that the professors and teachers also should have the same influence and rights as the University professors and teachers, and it is in order to secure this that I beg to propose the Motion which stands in my name.

Amendment proposed, in page 15, line 2, after Sub-section 4 of Clause 15, to insert as new sub-sections:— The principal, professors, lecturers, and otter teachers of any college which shall be affiliated to any University under the provisions of this Act, shall, as such, he members of that University. The students of any college which shall be affiliated to any University under the provisions of this Act shall matriculate in such University, and shall be subject to the University discipline and obligations, and be possessed of the same rights and privileges as students belonging to the college or "colleges of such University existing at the passing of this Act."—(Sir George Trevelyan).

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR LYON PLAYFAIK (Leeds, S.)

The object which my right hon. Friend has in view is, no doubt, at first sight rather tempting, but I would submit that it is impossible to accept his Motion. For instance, take the case of English colleges. No doubt some would be very glad to affiliate themselves to Scotch Universities. I take it the medical colleges at Birmingham, Leeds, and Manchester, and in other parts of England, would ask to be affiliated with the medical colleges in Scotch Universities; but it cannot for a moment be contemplated that their professors and lecturers shall have the same position and title as the professors and lecturers at the Universities to which they are affiliated. And as to the second part of the Amendment, I think it would be a very hard thing to compel students of affiliated colleges to matriculate at the University, and to subscribe, in order to enjoy the advantage of admission to the Library and Museum, which indeed they may never see in their lives. I think the adoption of this Amendment would entail hardship both upon students and upon pro- fessors, and it would obviously put the University in a very absurd position; because while it would give the professors and lecturers of the affiliated colleges a right to take part in the management of the Central University, the University Authorities would have no part in the government of the affiliated colleges. I think the proposal altogether unworkable, and I trust that my right hon. Friend will not press it.

* MR. J. A. CAMPBELL (Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities)

I think the right hon. Gentleman, in proposing this Amendment, must have had in his mind? the English University system rather than the Scotch, where a University is a college as well as a University. The great object of affiliation is not, as the right hon. Gentleman stated, to incorporate the colleges with a University, but rather to extend the University system by making the course of study at a college a qualifying course towards taking a University degree. It by no means follows that the students of the affiliated colleges should necessarily have the same privileges, the same position, and the same responsibilities as the students of the University proper. No doubt in some cases it may be arranged that they shall, but it is a different thing to say that in all cases it shall be necessary. Commissioners are under the Bill to be entrusted with the-power of conducting affiliation and laying down the regulations under which it is to be carried out, and it would be hampering them very much in their operations if this House were to lay down a general rule that the teachers and students of affiliated colleges should be put in exactly the same position as the teachers and students of the University itself. There is still another objection to the proposal. The Treasury have set apart a certain sum of money for the purpose of carrying out this Act—calculated upon the average amount of Parliamentary Grants to the Universities and other payments for them from the Treasury, during past years, with a certain addition for the new charges to be laid upon them by this Bill—and if an indefinite number of colleges are to have a claim to share in the distribution of that money, it will entirely upset all the financial arrangements. Dundee College stands, of course, in an exceptional position. It was necessary to attach it to St. Andrew's to make that University complete. The other Universities, however, are complete in themselves. I would, in conclusion, urge that if the Commissioners are left with a free hand, they will be better able to carry out the general purposes of this Bill.

* SIR W. FOSTER (Derby, Ilkeston)

I think the proposition of my right hon. Friend is not altogether in the interests of the widening of the benefits of the Universities, and I therefore hardly see my way to support it. The proposal, for instance, that the students of affiliated colleges should matriculate at the University in order to entitle them to take a degree there, would tend, I believe, to narrow the liberty of the University in granting medical degrees.

SIR G. TREVELYAN

After what has been said it is quite plain that it is useless to press the first paragraph of my Amendment. I therefore ask for leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR. G. TREVELYAN

I quite see it would be useless to press the first part of the Amendment I have just withdrawn, but there are students whose case, it appears to me, requires the attention of Parliament—namely, those who belong to affiliated colleges actually within the bounds of the locality in which the University is situated. It appears to me to be a great and undeniable grievance that these students should not be able to have the advantages of the students of the existing colleges, and therefore I propose to move an Amendment, providing that the student of any college which shall be affiliated to any University under this Act may matriculate, and shall be subject to such discipline and obligations and possessed of the same rights as students of the college of a University already existing. Under this Amendment any student who values the historical associations of such Universities as Edinburgh and Glasgow and wishes to enter into the spirit of the place, which after all forms by no means the least valuable part of the education of a University, will be able to do so by paying his fees and matriculating. If he resides at a place which is too distant, we may be quite sure he will not pay the fee unless he is able to profit by the advantages he may get from it; but if the student is on the spot, it may be very hard indeed to exclude him from everything that makes them famous, and most of what makes them valuable. I shall deem it my duty to press this Amendment.

Amendment proposed, in page 15, line 2, after Sub-section 4 of Clause 15, to insert as a new sub section: A student of any college which shall be affiliated to any university under the provisions of this Act may matriculate in such university, and such students shall he subject to the university discipline and obligations, and be possessed of the same rights and privileges as students belonging to the college or colleges of such university existing at the passing of this Act."—(Sir G. Trevelyan.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

* SIR L. PLAYFAIR

I think that what my right hon. Friend wishes to obtain would be advantageous, but I do not think legislation is required on the subject. According to the system of the Scotch Universities, any student may present himself for matriculation, and matriculate, and not attend one of the lectures in the University. He will appear on the roll of the University, and on payment of his matriculation fee will enjoy all the rights and privileges of the University.

MR. HUNTER (Aberdeen, N.)

I think there is an advantage in adopting these words, because I have heard of cases in which, on the eve of a rectorial election, obstacles have been thrown in the way of the matriculation of students in order to keep down the number of those who can take part in the election. I think it ought to be made perfectly clear that students have a right to matriculate and to obtain the privileges of the Universities.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I must object to placing in this Bill a clause o this kind, which is superfluous, and which, in my opinion, might be misleading. I believe the Amendment is intended to meet some case which the right hon. Gentleman has in his mind, and I rather deprecate proceeding in regard to individual instances. I think also great difficulties might be imposed upon the Commissioners if the proposal were adopted.

SIR G. TREVELYAN

I understand that the Lord Advocate——

* MR. SPEAKER

The right hon. Gentleman has exhausted his right to speak.

Question put, and negatived.

Clause 16.

MR. HUNTER

In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. Firth) I beg to move the Amendment standing on the Paper in his name, that is to say, to leave out the word "conjoint" in Clause 16. I have never been able to understand what is meant by the word in this connection, and it is objected to by the College of Dundee under some apprehension that it will give rise to erroneous ideas with respect to regulations proposed for the colleges.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 16, page 15, line 29, to leave out the word "conjoint."

Question proposed, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

DR. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.)

I sincerely hope the Lord Advocate will stand firmly by the friendly arrangement which he accepted in Committee. It was agreed at that time that an arrangement of this kind would prevent any friction in the future. As the case now stands the combination between St. Andrew's and Dundee would make an excellent University, and I do not think there is much prospect of Dundee standing alone.

* SIR L. PLAYFAIR

I hope the Commissioners will be allowed a free hand in drawing up a conjoint scheme. The University of St. Andrew's is not a thoroughly equipped school of medicine, but the College of Dundee will, I hope, become one. The University of St. Andrew's has even now a Chair of Medicine or Physiology, one of Chemistry and one of Natural History. It really is an extremely active small University in regard to some of these subjects of teaching, and in regard to natural history there is really no University in the country which is more active in the work it performs. I think that the interests of the new college should not alone be considered, but that the Commissioners should have a free hand in making a conjoint scheme instead of allowing one institution to be the rival of the other.

MR. C. S. PARKER (Perth)

I hope the Lord Advocate will put a word or two into the Bill to explain what the arrangement is. I do not think the simple word "conjoint" conveys a great deal in itself.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The clause, as it stood without the word "conjoint," rather suggested that the object of the affiliation of the College of Dundee was to furnish an equipped school of medicine. The word "conjoint" was inserted to show that the University of St. Andrew's was to be included in the scheme, and I think it very fair that that word should be left where it is.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

* MR. ESSLEMONT (Aberdeen, E.)

I hope the House will allow me to explain why I propose the rather strong measure of deleting from the Bill Clause 18. In Committee the Lord Advocate intimated that this was a clause which might be conveniently discussed on Report. The question of University tests was raised in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for South Aberdeen (Mr. Bryce), and on that occasion I found myself unable to join with him, being unavoidably absent from the House. There are one or two circumstances connected with the question which make it more convenient that a Division should be taken now. When the House first considered the question it had to deal with it in regard to all the Chairs of general culture, as well as with those Chairs which are termed theological. I thankfully acknowledge the concession made by the Government, that tests with regard to-Chairs of general culture shall cease and determine. Let us consider the composition of the Commission to whom the question that remains is to be referred. It is a miniature of the House, and contains a majority of Conservative Members. The Scotch Universities ought to be Liberal Institutions in order to fulfil the purposes of their existence. I submit that we know already what Report will be given by the Commission in regard to theological tests. Undoubtedly it will report that theological tests ought to continue, and that the test to be applied is that of a confession of faith in conformity with the Church of Scotland as esta- bished by law. Why, then, should the Commission have the trouble of bringing up a Report on the question? No Member of this House requires a Commission to enable him to make up his mind in regard to the subject of theological tests. The question is decided by the constituencies. It is not a matter which can be submitted to any Commission whatever. I take my stand upon the question of principle. I belong to a religious denomination which for 150 years has believed that the State has no right to apply public money to teach any religion whatever, and if they have no right to do it elsewhere they have no right to do it in the University. But I call for the abolition of these tests upon the general ground of economy, and also upon the ground that it will promote harmony. We have in Scotland Presbyterian and Dissenting denominations teaching theology not inferior to the theology of the Church of Scotland. The expense is defrayed by the contributions of the members of the different denominations. The Church of Scotland is the wealthiest Church in Scotland, and it is better able to provide Theological teaching than other denominations. My contention is that if we abolish these tests, and are to have Thelogical Chairs at all, we might have the Chairs supported not by the Exchequer of the country, but by the whole of the Presbyterian Bodies, if not by the whole of the Churches in Scotland, upon economical and efficient principles. At present they are neither efficient nor economical. We have Chairs maintained for the fewest possible students, and they are maintained at each of existing Universities. I hope the time is not far distant when even in Scotland there will be greater harmony upon ecclesiastical questions. We are now entering upon University reform, but by this clause we are proposing to perpetuate the old ecclesiastical bickerings which are brought into all political questions. We are keeping up in the different parishes of Scotland, those ecclesiastical differences which are wasting the general contributions of the people and the endowments which the Church has from the State. All these things could be remedied and set at rest; these ecclesiastical differences could be taken out of the arena of politi- cal debate. If this clause were deleted we should be in a position to take up the question and decide it upon its merits. At present the question is to be practically hung up for the next two or three years. I raise the point again on Report in no captious Spirit, with no desire to accentuate any differences which may exist. In the interests of the Commission, I propose that we should not submit to them a subject that they know very little about and cannot decide to the satisfaction of the House. I readily acknowledge the fairness with which the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General for Scotland have met us upon this Bill, and the desire they have shown that we should have a full opportunity of expressing our views. I hope I have shown no desire to detain the House at undue length. I stand here on a matter of principle, and I am obliged to take a Division. I hope I may be accompanied in the Lobby by all those who want to put an end to those ecclesiastical differences and bickerings which have already survived too long.

Amendment proposed, in page 16, to leave out Clause 18.—(Mr. Esslemont.)

Question proposed, "That Clause 18 stand part of the Bill."

SIR G. TREVELYAN

I am glad my hon. Friend has brought forward this question, and I think the House will agree with his last remark, that it is very important to take a Division upon the point without any prolonged Debate. The hon. Member is quite right in bringing it forward, because it is a new question. It is a question now whether this matter of principle should be referred to the University Commission appointed, as we think, for very different purposes. We have not yet had a vote upon that important point. I could not put my own view more strongly than in that sentence if I spoke for half an hour.

* MR. W. P. SINCLAIR (Falkirk Burghs)

My hon. Friend (Mr. Esslemont) has spoken of the Commission necessarily coming to a foregone conclusion. If I thought that were the case, I should certainly vote for my hon. Friend's Amendment. But it is because we look at the clause it is proposed to delete and consider it with the names and characters of those who compose the Commission, that we think it is fair and wise to refer this question for enquiry and report to the Commission, and their decision is not necessarily a foregone conclusion. The hon. Member speaks of gentlemen being on the Commission who know little of the subject in hand, but I think that accusation simply requires to be stated in order to carry its own refutation. The Commission may not decide to the satisfaction of the House? No, and the Commission is not asked so to decide; they are asked to make a special Report on the matter to hand to Her Majesty. They can come to no definite conclusion; they can simply report. On this subject it is most essential we should have an investigation and a Report—a Report which will satisfy the people of Scotland, who already know it is not a foregone conclusion. The subject will be considered by the Commissioners with practical ability and in a conscientious manner, who will then report to the House and the country on the subject.

MR. HUNTER

I think the great objection to the clause is that it throws upon the Commissioners a great deal of work, and that work will simply be spoiled work, for it is absurd to suppose that any number of persons will be to the slightest extent affected by the opinions of individual Commisisoners on this subject. The question of theological tests is not one that requires investigation. The inquiry upon which these gentlemen will embark is a perfectly useless and wasteful inquiry. While I make these remarks, I think it is immaterial whether the clause is retained or omitted, for it is certain that nothing in the inquiry by the Commissioners, or the opinion of the Commissioners, will, in the slightest degree influence those of us on this side who are disposed at the earliest opportunity to put an end to the injustice connected with theological tests in connection with the Universities of Scotland.

The House divided:—Ayes 178; Noes 98.—(Div. List, No. 263.)

MR. HUNTER

The Amendment I wish to insert is met, I believe, by an Amendment the Lord Advocate is about to propose.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 20, line 14, to omit the word "there from," and insert the words "from such scheme or any part thereof."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

MR. BUCHANAN (Edinburgh, W.)

I do not gather whether this carries out the intention of the hon. Member for North Aberdeen. Perhaps the Lord Advocate will explain.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I have shown the Amendment to the hon. Member for North Aberdeen. The words I propose are taken from the Endowments Act, 32 and 33 Vict., o. 56, and provide for what the hon. Member desires, that if the objection of Parliament is to any particular part of the scheme the objection may be so stated and the other part may be proceeded with.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 20, line 15, to add the words "Or any part thereof to which such address does not relate."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 21, page 18, line 26, after the word "been," to insert— Approved by Her Majesty in Council, and that it shall be lawful for Her Majesty to refer such ordinances to the Universities Committee, who shall report to Her Majesty thereon: Provided further, that such ordinances shall be."— (Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 25, page 19, lines 23 and 24, to leave out the words "charged upon the Consolidated Fund or the growing produce thereof," and insert the words "paid out of moneys to be provided by Parliament."—(Mr. Hunter).

Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendments in Clause 26 (Mr. Hunter), agreed to.

MR. HUNTER

There is an Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend (Mr. Wallace). I do not know whether the Government will accept it. I will move it.

* MR. SPEAKER

The Amendment, which provides that no portion of the sum shall be appropriated to the payment of compensation fixed under this or any other Act, is not in order.

MR. HUNTER

The understanding was that no pensions should be paid out of this fund.

* MR. SPEAKER

The understanding would not affect the point of order.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 29, page 21, line 18, before the word "thousand," to insert the word "forty-two."— (Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

MR. HUNTER

Upon this point I may ask a question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman made a statement in which he said this £42,000 would be clear of certain charges.

MR. GOSCHEN

No.

MR. HUNTER

Well, that was our unfortunate understanding. Perhaps the best course will be for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state exactly what he intends to do with the £42,000, and especially with reference to the compensations we had in mind for professors whose interests may be injuriously affected by ordinances made under this Act under Clause 14.

* THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN,) St. George's, Hanover Square

I am glad the bon. Member has raised this point; it is one upon which it is desirable there should be no misunderstanding. I think I can, in a few words, recall to the memories of hon. Members how this matter stands. I said I would consider a method of assisting the settlement of these claims for compensation; but I said I could not agree that these claims should altogether be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund. When I was asked to put the whole amount upon the Consolidated Fund, I pointed out that in that case we should not have the support of the Royal Commission in the endeavour to keep down the amount of compensation. I stated that I could not undertake the whole of the compensation, or pledge the Treasury to an unlimited extent. What I offered was that, seeing that these claims might be a heavy charge upon the funds at the disposal of the Commission, I should be willing, if the Commission presented a fair case to the Treasury and made reasonable proposals, to assist the Commission in that case to a moderate extent. That is substantially what I promised. We will offer assistance on condition that the Commission will present claims that are not extravagantly high, and in this way the Treasury and the Commission will assist each other.

* SIR LYON PLAYFAIR (Leeds, S.)

That is the impression left on my mind by the previous speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I fancy there may still be some misapprehension left on the minds of some of my friends. The assistance of the Treasury will be beyond the limit of £42,000?

* MR. GOSCHEN

I was pressed to agree to throw upon the Treasury the expenditure beyond £42,000; but this I, on the part of the Government, declined to do. Feeling, however, the difficulty the Commission might have in settling these claims, I undertook to assist the Commission to a moderate extent, if a satisfactory claim was put before us.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 30, line 25, to leave out the third "of," and insert "or."—(Mr. J P. B. Robertson.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 30 line 26, before the word "which," insert the words "thereof existing at the passing of this A.ct."—(Mr. J. A. Campbell.)

Amendment agreed to.

SIR G. TREVELYAN

I should like to hear a few words on this subject from the Lord Advocate—

* MR. SPEAKER

I have decided the "Ayes" have it.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 30, page 21, line 30, to leave out the words from, "and to enable," to end of Clause, inclusive.—(Mr. J. A. Campbell.)

SIR G. TREVELYAN

Undoubtedly it is a somewhat late period to take exception to an Amendment which is very like a consequential Amendment to that the hon. Member has just succeeded in carrying; but I regret that the first Amendment was carried without a word or two from the Lord Advocate, because it appears to me to very seriously weaken the hold of the University over the affiliated colleges, a hold which I understand the affiliated colleges in all cases would not object to.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I must confess that I expected the right hon. Gentleman would have intervened, but as he did not do so on the first Amendment, I rather gathered that his objection had disappeared. I cannot say that I feel this is very important; but it appears to me that as the former part of the clause has been altered it is right that these words should go out. But I do not think it is a very important matter.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 32, page 22, line 30, leave out the words "or senior principal if more than one." —(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Amendment agreed to.

* MR. W. H. SMITH

I would appeal to the House to allow the Bill to be read a third time at once.

MR. HUNTER

I must object, on the ground that some Members desire to make a few observations on that stage of the Bill.

* MR. W. H. SMITH

Under these circumstances I will not press the Third Beading on this occasion, but I trust there will be no objection to taking it to-morrow.

Bill to be read the third time tomorrow.