HC Deb 15 July 1889 vol 338 cc450-80

Clause 1.

Amendment proposed, Clause 1, page 1, line 11, leave out "December," and insert "February."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I beg to propose the next Amendment that stands in my name.

Amendment proposed, Clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out "eighty-nine," and insert "ninety, and on the first Tuesday of December in the year one thousand eight hundred and ninety-two."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson).

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

* MR. BARCLAY

I think it would be much more convenient to have the election in November than in December.

THE CHAIRMAN

I think the hon. Member is referring to the first Amendment. That has now been passed over.

MR. BUCHANAN (Edinburgh, W.)

The question which my hon. Friend refers to arises partly on this Amendment, which relates to the time of the election after the first election. Midwinter would be an exceedingly inconvenient time for the County Council elections to be held, and particularly in the Highlands, where the electors often have to make long journeys in order to record their votes. I shall be inclined to support any proposal that may be made for holding the elections at a more sensible time of the year.

* MR. BARCLAY

I move to leave out "December" in order to insert "November." There is in my constituency a strong feeling that the month of December would be very unsuitable for the election, and particularly for those who enjoy the service franchise. I do not see why the county elections should not take place at the same time as those in the towns, and I think the first Tuesday in November would be much more satisfactory than the date proposed.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to leave out "December" in order to insert "November."

Question proposed, "That the word 'December' stand part of the proposed Amendment."

DR. CLARK

I hope the Government will accept this Amendment. I happened many years ago to be elected on a Tuesday in December, and the result was that we had to wait for three days to get the ballot-boxes in on account of a snowstorm, and it was impossible for a number of voters to get to the mainland to record their votes. In many burghs men had to be imported to act as polling clerks, and if the county elections took place about the same time these people could be utilized with very little increased cost to the county.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

This, of course, is entirely a matter of convenience and detail, but I am afraid that November would be too early for the election. One of course sees that the further we get into winter the less convenient the election will be. But the Parliamentary roll is just ready by the 1st of November. Now, in burghs, where the roll is always accessible, the election can take place at once. But you have to consider the case of the more scattered counties, and I do not think you could have the election before December, as the roll is not ready until November. There is another matter to consider. By an Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. Barclay), the Town Councils are to elect their representatives to the County Councils. It is quite clear that it must he the fresh Town Council that should elect, and the fresh Town Council is not itself appointed until November.

* MR. BARCLAY

I wish to point out that under the Bill as now worded, there will be in police burghs two separate elections, one for Police Commissioners in November, and another for County Councils in December. The difficulty which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just suggested is not a serious one, because the Amendment I proposed, and which was agreed to, was that the County Councillors should be elected in burghs at the first meeting of the new Town Council.

MR. FIRTH (Dundee)

I should like to say that in the interests of uniformity, as both the municipal and County Council elections in England and the municipal elections in Scotland are in November, I think it will be well to make the County Council elections in Scotland in the same month, but later in that month.

MR. CALDWELL

The roll ought to be ready in all parts of the county on the third Tuesday in November, and that would get rid of the difficulty that would otherwise be caused by farm labourers removing on the 26th of November.

* MR. BARCLAY

I hope the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate will consider the question before Report, and if so I will withdraw my Amendment.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I cannot undertake to reopen the question of County Councillors being elected by police burghs, because it was very fully considered by the Committee, but we will see if we can do anything to meet the views of hon. Gentlemen with regard to the date.

Question put, and agreed to.

Other Amendments made.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2.

On the Motion of Mr. J. P. B. Robertson the following Amendments were agreed to:—In page 3, line 1, leave out "in," and insert "for;" page 31 lines 4 and 5, leave out "County Council," and insert "returning officer;" page 3, line 5, after "appoint," add— Provided that, if the returning officer shall so determine, the county electors for two or more electoral divisions may, by public notice timeously given, be directed to poll at the same polling place, and such place shall be conveniently situated for the majority of such county electors.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3.

SIR G. CAMPBELL

I wish to ask the Lord Advocate whether the proposal to omit this clause will not cause some obscurity in connection with Clause 4. I wish to know whether the Town Council at large will elect the County Councillors, or whether as, in the case of the School Board, it will be one or more votes for one man?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The point is worth considering, whether there should be as many votes as candidates.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON moved, Clause 5, page 4, line 10, before "or," insert "non-acceptance of office."

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

* MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

Is it not desirable to make some definition as to the time in which an elected Member should accept?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I think that is provided for by a subsequent clause.

* MR. FIRTH

When such an election takes place under the Bill of last year, no vacancy is to be filled up within six months of the triennial election.

Question put, and agreed to.

* MR. BARCLAY

The Amendment which I now move is to provide that in the event of a vacancy, the election to fill the vacancy shall be by the Council of the burg and not by the County Council.

Amendment proposed, page 10, after "disqualification," insert "of a Councillor not being a Councillor elected by a burgh or police burgh."

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I cannot see that the point is one of great importance. The reason for filling up a vacancy by co-optation is to avoid the expense of such election. I am, however, quite ready to concede the Amendment.

Question put, and agreed to.

* MR. SHIRESS WILL (Montrose, &c.)

I only wish to know, in moving this Amendment in my name, whether the Lord Advocate will reconsider the matter to which it refers? I move formally.

Motion made, Clause 5, page 4, line 10, leave out "the County Council," and insert— election; and such election shall he held by the same persons and in the same manner as an election to fill an ordinary vacancy, and the person elected shall hold the office until the time when the person in whose place he is elected would regularly have gone out of office, and he shall then go out of office.

Question proposed, "That the words 'the County Council' stand part of the Clause."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I hope the hon. Gentleman will not press this proposal, as I am unable to assent to it.

* MR. SHIRESS WILL

I do not propose, under the circumstances, to press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, Clause 5, page 4, line 13, leave out after "county," to end of Clause.—(The Lord Advocate.)—Agreed to.

Motion made Clause 5, page 4, line 13, after "occurred," add— and shall remain in office so long only as the person in whose room he was appointed would have remained in office."—(Mr. Hozier.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 6, 7, and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9.

Amendment proposed, page 5, line 16, leave out "but," and insert— Provided that any district for the purposes of maintaining and managing highways shall also be a district for the purpose of the administration of the laws relating to public health, and."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed, page 5, line 38, after "burgh," insert— And shall be held to have contained according to the census of 1881 a population of more than 7,000."—(Mr. Hozier.)

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I hope the hon. Gentleman will not press this Amendment, which I do not think at all necessary, as the matter is dealt with in a special clause.

* MR. HOZIER

That being so, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 10 agreed to.

Clause 11.

The following Amendments were agreed to:—Clause 11, page 6, line 14, leave out "a county," and insert "from and after the passing of this Act, counties and burghs; "lines 14 and 15, leave out "it has at the passing of this Act," and insert— They respectively have, or in the case of counties still subject to local Acts of Parliament regulating highways will have, after the appointed day: Lines 15 and 16, leave out "County General Assessment (Scotland) Act, 1868," and insert "'Roads and Bridges (Scotland) Act, 1878;'" Amendment proposed, line 20, before "boundary," insert— Sheriff in the year one thousand eight hundred and eighty-nine, and thereafter the."—(The Lord Advocate,)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

* MR. D. CRAWFORD

This is a question of which it may truly be said that it is in no sense a Party question, and I am confident if the Government see their way to accept my suggestion they will do so. From information which has reached me from various quarters I am fully persuaded that the creation of expensive machinery to deal with the boundary question is totally unnecessary. I think the duty may very well be entrusted or future years—just as it is proposed for the first year—to the Sheriff. There is one consideration to which I should like to draw the attention of the Lord Advocate,, and that is as regards the adjustment of the difficult question of expenses as between county and burgh. Now, in the distribution of the local taxation licences we propose that some system shall be devised for throwing them into a common fund, and thus the question of expenses would not arise. Of course, if this question remained, it might prove one of the best defences of the proposal for the appointment of a Boundary Commission. But we hope that this thorny question of expenses and interest as between burgh and county will not arise, but that the licences will be dealt with on some general principle. Is it not the fact that the Boundary Commissioners in England have found their duties to be exceptionally light? I am sure the Government would not appoint the Boundary Commissions simply for the purpose of creating a few offices; and I would earnestly ask them to consider whether the Sheriff could not do the work sufficiently well under proper precautions.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

Upon this subject I may point out to the hon. Gentleman that the duties of the Commissioners will only arise when the boundaries of a burgh run into two counties, or where it is a dispute as to the boundaries of two counties. In such a matter it is evident you must, for the determination of the question, have a tribunal which stands entirely outside the county, and that a Sheriff certainly does not do. Take the ease of a boundary to be rectified between two counties. Each county has a Sheriff; which Sheriff is to decide the dispute; or, if both are to adjudicate, who is to be the umpire? If you are to have Sheriffs entirely outside the counties, why then that is only the Boundary Commission under another name. Already questions have arisen which will require very close examination, and it will be better to have an absolutely impartial body than to entrust the duty to an official who already has considerable duties to perform.

* MR. D. CRAWFORD

It seems to me that this is a question for the discre- tion of the Government; but I think it my duty to point out that in the opinion of many of us on this side of the House the proposal would mean a very unnecessary expenditure of public money, and that the duties might be very much more economically performed.

* MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

This is a matter, as has been said, very much for the discretion of the Government. It is also a matter of experience, and it has been pointed out that the Boundary Commissioners appointed under the English Bill of last year have found their duties not nearly as heavy as was anticipated by the House. If that be so, I really think it is worth while for the Government to consider whether all this expense and machinery for a special Boundary Commission is necessary. I attach the greatest importance to the opinion of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Lanarkshire (Mr. D. Crawford), because he was himself a Boundary Commissioner under the Representation of the People (Scotland) Act of a year or two ago, so that he must be well aware of the work which will come before the Commission. My hon. Friend thinks it may be possible to dispense with the creation of this body, and I really hope that his views will be taken into consideration. I do not think there would be much difficulty in arranging that the question of boundaries should be settled by the Sheriff, especially as the Boundary Commissioners would be men with no knowledge of the locality.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

This is entirely a matter of administrative arrangement. It is desirable, however, that the work of settling the boundaries should be settled by persons who are entirely impartial. Nothing I have heard in the Debate has removed the impression from my mind that the appointment of a Boundary Commission is the best plan of settling these questions. On the question of expense, it may be observed that if the right hon. Gentleman opposite is right in thinking that the amount of work will be light, the expense will be correspondingly light. No doubt also the people concerned would look with more confidence on an impartial body of men than they would on the Local Authorities.

Question put, and agreed to.

MR. DUFF

The next Amendment, standing on the Paper in my name, is drawn after consultation with the Road Trustees of the County of Aberdeen and the County of Moray, and has received their approval. It is only a temporary provision intended to be in force until the Boundary Commissioners define the boundaries of counties. The Bill as it stands at present presents an anomaly in this respect—that taxation and representation do not necessarily go together; but, according to this Amendment, certain members of both parties would not be represented on the County Council. But I think that objection can be overcome by a subsequent Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. J. B. Balfour.)

Amendment proposed, Clause 11, page 6, line 21, at end, add— Where the boundary of a road district has been fixed under a Local Road Act, passed prior to the General Road Act of 1878, the existing boundary so defined in said Local Act shall continue in force for all rating purposes for the maintenance and management of roads and bridges, notwithstanding any provisions in this Act to the contrary."—(Mr. Duff.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I must own that there is great reason why care should be taken not to disturb an arrangement which has been ratified by Parliament, and which is found to be most convenient. If, however, we were to adopt the course suggested in the Amendment we should, as it were, divorce the administration of the roads from the administration of other county affairs. Then the question arises, what electorate is to determine in the one question and the other. Are they to be the same or different? I have carefully considered the problem involved in the Amendment, and I think a solution may be found in the action of the Joint Committee appointed by the two counties. Whether that be so or not, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I completely sympathize with the object he has in view, and in one way or other I am quite certain we shall attain it.

MR. DUFF

If the Amendment be withdrawn will the right hon. Gentleman bring up a clause to carry out the object in view?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I will either do that or enable the hon. Gentleman to make a proposal of his own if he differs from me.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 12.

Amendment proposed, Clause 12, page 6, line 24, after "counties," insert "so far as expedient."—(Mr. J. B. Balfour.)

Amendment agreed to.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I beg to move the next Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment proposed, Clause 12, page 6, line 25, after "counties," insert "or parishes."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Question proposed, "That those words lie there inserted."

* MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

I wish to ask whether the Boundary Commissioners are to deal with the question of burghs wholly within one county? I think the Lord Advocate is aware that one of the burghs in my constituency is very unfortunately situated, and there are others in much the same position—the Parliamentary and Royal burghs differing entirely in their extent. The Boundary Commissioners I am afraid would not have power to deal with a question of this sort.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

No, Sir; that would not fall within the scope of the Boundary Commission. The Committee has already decided that the municipal boundary is to decide the area of the burgh—that is to say, where the Parliamentary burgh differs from the municipal boundary the latter shall prevail.

Question put, and agreed to.

* MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

Will the Lord Advocate state the names of the Commissioners?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

No, Sir; I cannot just now. I think it will be perfectly satisfactory to the right hon. Gentleman if I do so on Report.

DR. CAMERON

Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some indication of the number of the Commissioners, and of the character of the Commission?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I think a very small number will be sufficient. It seems well that there should be a very limited number, so that there may be concentrated action on the part of all of them.

DR. CAMERON

How will the Commission be composed? Will there be a mixture of the legal and engineering elements?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I do not think the legal element ought to preponderate. My impression is that the Commission ought to be one consisting of business men, who would deal with the matter on intelligible as well as scientific principles.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 13 agreed to.

Clause 14.

The following Amendments were agreed to:—Page 8, line 5, after "parishes," leave out "and," and insert "or;" line 6, after "burgh," insert "or to group parishes or parts of parishes;" lines 7 and 8, leave out "parishes or police burghs," and insert "districts formed under the provisions of this Act;" line 14, after "equal," insert "but subject always to the provisions of this Act."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

* MR. J. B. BALFOUR

The primary idea of the publication required by the clause is, no doubt, that the matter should become known to all persons interested, and for this purpose local newspapers are unquestionably useful. But there are reasons that also render it desirable that there should be publication in the Edinburgh Gazette. Thus there are railways in Scotland which traverse 1,200 miles of country, and it cannot be expected that their officials should read all the local newspapers published in the country so traversed, while they could read the Edinburgh Gazette. I move my Amendment.

Amendments proposed, page 8, line 17, after "in," insert "the 'Edinburgh Gazette,' and in;" page 8, line 17, after "such," insert "other."

Amendments agreed to.

* MR. HOZIER

The Edinburgh Gazette may be very interesting reading, but it is not much read, either by my constituents or by me, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not object to my Amendment in line 21.

Amendment proposed, page 8, line 21, after "Gazette," add "and once in each of two successive weeks in some one and the same newspaper circulating in the district."

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

DR. CAMERON

Perhaps the Lord Advocate can now give us some general idea of the line upon which these County Councils should be constituted. It will be remembered that at an earlier stage of the first Bill my hon. Friend the Member for North Lanark brought the matter forward, and a Division was taken on the general question whether the divisions of the county for electoral purposes should be scheduled in the Bill. It was promised then that there should be laid before the House information as to the general rules that would be followed. It was stated that there was a general idea that the number of Councillors should be about 60. I think before we pass away from this clause we should have some general idea of what are the Government proposals on this point.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I am not aware that whatever may be the number decided upon any modification of this clause will be necessary. I shall certainly be prepared at a very early stage to give the information.

* Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

Before the Bill leaves Committee?

Mr. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

Yes, certainly. We have been making sufficient progress to justify a hope that we may get through the Bill to-night; but I shall be prepared to report Progress before the Bill is finished, to allow of the statement being made.

Dr. CAMERON

For the right hon. Gentleman to ask us to accede to this clause laying down instructions to the Sheriff without any information on the point, is "rather a large order," to use a common expression.

MR. ANGUS SUTHERLAND

Will the statement be a verbal one?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I hope to make a verbal statement in such a form that it shall be perfectly intelligible.

DR. CLARK

I think it was understood, from the President of the Local Government Board, that a statement should be submitted which, if the Committee desired, should be scheduled in the Bill.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I am in the recollection of the Committee, but certainly no such pledge was given that the statement should be scheduled in the Bill.

DR. CAMERON

I think the arrangement was that the statement should be laid upon the Table, and when any member of the Committee could have an opportunity of moving that it be scheduled in the Bill.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

To that I calmly adhere. I will undertake that the Bill shall be laid on the Table before the Bill leaves Committee. We shall present it for information with the hope that it may find acceptance, but it will be open to the Committee to make any suggestion on the information supplied.

MR. J. C. BOLTON

Will the numbers of the Councils be approximately equal, because the circumstances of the counties vary very much?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The hon. Member will observe the effect of the words, subject always to the provisions of this Act. A general view will be taken of the whole circumstances, and having regard to all the matters referred to, you reach a standard of equality, and, according to this, you make them as far as possible approximately equal.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 15.

The following Amendments were agreed to:—Page 8, lines 23 and 24, leave out "of each county;" line 26, after "in," insert "section 14 and sub-section (1) of;" line 31, after "Gazette," insert— And once in each of two successive weeks in some one and the same newspaper circulating in the district; Line 35, after "Acts," insert— (4.) All expenses properly incurred by the Sheriff under this Section shall be deemed to be part of the expense of making up the register of county electors, and be defrayed and provided for accordingly.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16.

The following Amendments were agreed to:—Page 8, line 39, leave out after "and," to "or," inclusive, in line 40; line 41, before "and," insert "and parishes;" page 9, line 1, after "may," insert— If the Commissioners shall, in the whole circumstances of the case, deem it necessary or expedient.

Line 2, after "and," insert "that;" line 2, after the second "county," insert "or parish."

Amendments agreed to.

Amendment proposed, page 9, line 8, after "provided," insert— Provided that in determining any alteration of boundaries the Commissioners shall take into account how far the proposed alterations may affect the revenues of the districts concerned; and shall hear any County or Local Authorities affected by any such proposed alteration before determining the same.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

If it were not for local circumstances, I should have accepted this unsuspiciously; but anything that comes from that extremely controversial legion around Glasgow raises suspicion at once. I would suggest to my hon. Friend that he should omit the words from "take" in the second line down to "shall."

Sir A. CAMPBELL assented.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following further Amendments were agreed to:—

Page 9, line 8, after "provided," insert, Provided that in determining any alteration of boundaries the Commissioners shall hear any County or Local Authorities affected by any such proposed alteration before determining the same.

Page 9, line 25. leave out "scheme," and insert "order."

Page 9, lines 29 and 30, leave out "have effect only as," and insert "be deemed to be."

Page 9, line 35, leave out "referred to a Select Committee," and insert "deemed to be."

Clause 17.

Amendment proposed, page 11, line 4, before "adjustment," insert "any."—(The Lord Advocate.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18.

On the Motion of the Lord Advocate, the following Amendments were agreed to:—Page 11, line 22, after "number," insert "of county councillors, the number"; line 28, leave out "small."

On the Motion of Sir John Kinloch the following Amendments were agreed to:—Page 11, line 28, after "parishes," insert "or parts of parishes; "line 29, after "parishes," insert "or parts of parishes;" line 30, after "parishes," insert" or parts of parishes."

* MR. CRAWFORD

I have an Amendment to propose which does not appear on the Paper. I am not quite certain whether this is a popular Amendment and I daresay some parishes will much object to be grouped with others for rating purposes. But I feel very strongly that in many cases it is desirable to enlarge the area of rating and therefore I have no hesitation in submitting this Amendment to the judgment of the Committee. There is one observation which might be made by way of objection to this Amendment, and that is that the Secretary for Scotland is already empowered on the petition of a County Council to unite certain parishes for these purposes. There are many parts of Scotland in which I admit it would not be expedient to put this Amendment in force. But there are other parts where the parishes are so numerous and so small that obviously they do not form a convenient area for rating purposes, and we have long been anxious in those cases to have an opportunity of enlarging the rating area. Now, this proposal is guarded in the Bill itself by two precautions. One is, that the Secretary for Scotland can only take action on the petition of the County Council, which is responsible for the district affected; and the other is that no alteration in the boundaries can take effect except it is contained in a Provisional Order, which must be ratified by Act of Parliament. I think the importance of maintaining the independence of small parishes is so great that unless we had these two securities—the security of origin and that of confirma- tion—I should not take the responsibility of making this proposal to the Committee. Under the circumstances, however, I would urge upon the Lord Advocate the importance of giving some legislative. assistance for the enlargement of areas of rating when it is necessary.

Amendment proposed, Clause 18, page 11, line 32, to insert a new subsection with a view to uniting all the parishes and school districts within a county district into one area of rating.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The hon. and learned Member has given evidence of the great interest he takes in this subject; and I am not surprised—after the Debate we had last Friday—that he should have brought forward this Amendment. But I must point out that he is stepping outside the province of this Bill by entering into the region of rating areas for purely parochial rates. I do not see how we can very well vest the District Committees of the County Councils with the duty of raising rates over the administration of which they will have no control whatever. At present it will be observed that we leave the administration of the school and parochial rates to the School Board and Parochial Board respectively. We do not transfer those duties to the County Councils; and I do not see by what logic or reason you can make the District Committee of the County Council—which has nothing to do with these rates—the rating authority for them. I agree that it may be desirable to unite parishes, in some instances, for the collection of rates; but that must be done on considerations which are entirely separate from those now before the Committee. The hon. and learned Gentleman is pursuing a more ambitious course than we necessarily find it possible to adopt.

* MR. CRAWFORD

The Bill itself transfers certain duties and rates of the Parochial Boards, and I thought I was only following out that principle when I made this proposal. It would be possible—if the Lord Advocate preferred it—not to make the District Committee the rating authority, but I do not think that my proposal is unreasonable, seeing that each of the Parochial Boards would be represented on the District Committee. Still, if the Lord Advocate will approve of my Amendment to the extent of saying there ought to be a wider rating authority, I shall be content to leave it in that position.

* MR. BARCLAY

I am afraid that the proposal of my hon. Friend is premature. The great object of the present Bill is that each County Council shall determine the district which is most suitable for administration and rating, and when we have attained that end, then it will be time enough to try and secure uniform rating for all purposes over the district. The great difficulty in dealing with the question of county government is the inequality of the rating area, and the desire is to break up the county into suitable districts for administration and uniformity of rating. I hope that the County Councils, after some experience, will be able to divide the counties into districts and areas most suitable for uniformity of rating and administration, and then when they have gained sufficient experience, we could have a Bill to amalgamate the whole administration under the District Committee with uniform assessment and a consolidated rate.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19.

DR. FARQUHARSON

I wish to introduce a word in this clause which will, however, have the important effect of making the clause compulsory instead of permissive.

Amendment proposed, page 12, line 27, leave out "may, if they see fit," and insert "shall, except where otherwise allowed by Board of Supervision, from time to time."

MR. MARK STEWART

My Amendment, which follows, will have practically the same effect. My experience is that unless you make the carrying out of these powers of appointing medical officers and sanitary inspectors compulsory, few Boards will take the trouble to enforce them.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

This is certainly an Amendment of great importance, and I have very great sympathy with the objects disclosed by the hon. Members. But at the same time, I do not think it would be wise for the Bill to, in so many words, compel the County Council to equip a full sanitary staff. I think it is quite sufficient to give them a broad hint that it is their duty—except under exceptional circumstances—to appoint a medical officer and sanitary inspector. It is wise to give a stimulus to sanitary organization throughout the country, but doubt if it is wise to proceed by compulsion. Still in order to enlist the active co-operation of the County Councils, I think it would be as well to use more general terms.

* MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

Of course, we have always been taught to understand that the word "may" in an Act of Parliament means "shall," and if the Lord Advocate consents to the omission of the words, "if they see fit," thus leaving the word "may," and agree also that that shall be taken as meaning "shall," I shall be quite content. But he speaks of "exceptional circumstances" in which the County Council may be placed in regard to the appointments of medical officers. Now, I cannot conceive any such exceptional circumstances. Upon what occasions can it possibly be that it will not be the duty of a County Council to appoint a medical officer, and a sanitary inspector? Are there any conceivable reasons why a county should be left without this sanitary organization? I do not believe there are any such exceptional circumstances, or any grounds whatever for such a suggestion, and therefore I am quite prepared to support my hon. Friend in insisting on the use of the imperative phrase.

MR. FINLAY

I apprehend that my hon. Friend the Lord Advocate will hardly say that the word "may" means "must." There was an idea abroad for some time, such as has been referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling Burghs, that the word "may" in an Act of Parliament meant "must" or "shall," but it has recently been decided by the highest tribunal that the word "may" means nothing else but "may," and not "shall," and it is only where some antecedent duty of exercising certain functions exists that the word "may" can be construed as imposing a duty.

* SIR W. FOSTER (Derby, Ilkestone)

The object of the Amendment before the Committee is, I take it, to insure that the exercise of these powers shall be compulsory. In the past, permissive legislation has not proved satisfactory in Scotland. We have very few Medical Officers of Health there, and we want to insure that there shall be a complete sanitary organization in every county, and that the establishment of that organization shall be one of the primary duties which the Local Authorities will' be compelled to carry out. We think it is essential for the health of the community and for the general well-being of a district that this should be done. I can quite understand that the Lord Advocate has in his mind the case of some of the smaller counties, and that he thinks that the compulsory appointment of these officials would be to them a matter of considerable expense. But there is no reason why these smaller counties should not unite for the appointment of a thoroughly efficient officer for the combined districts. We believe that medical officers appointed under these circumstances have much greater influence as sanitary advisers than if they are appointed for smaller areas. The experience gained under the Local Government Act passed last year, affords an additional reason for making this provision compulsory. Up to the present time only a small number of counties in England have taken it upon themselves to exercise this power of appointing Medical Officers of Health, and we hold that it would be better for the sanitary condition of the country if every County Council would; carry out the objects of this provision.

MR. FIRTH

There is still another reason to which I wish the attention of the Lord Advocate to be drawn. Under Section 20 District Sanitary Officers will be responsible to the County Councils, and it is obviously necessary that the County Councils should have an officer qualified to advise them, otherwise the-Reports of the sanitary officers would be useless.

DR. CLARK

I hope that in this-case the Lord Advocate will adopt the Amendment. I think each county should appoint as medical officer a man who will devote his entire time to the work. But still, it would be pos- sible for two or three small counties to combine in order to secure the services of a thoroughly efficient medical officer. I do not see why the Lord Advocate should object to this Amendment, unless, indeed, it is desired—and unless also it is the intention of the Government—to permit some counties not to appoint medical officers and sanitary inspectors. If that is their desire, then by all means let us make the clause permissible; but if it is the intention of the House and the Government that there shall be in every county a medical officer of health and sanitary inspector, then we ought to adopt the Amendment of my hon. Friend.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

Our desire was rather to leave the counties to take the initiative in this matter, but the expression of opinion which we have had to-night shows that this is one of those prominent questions upon which we ought to take the liberty of directing the action of the County Councils. That being so, the Government have no desire to stand in the way of so peremptory an indication of opinion as has come from hon. Gentlemen opposite. The hon. Member for Caithness has pointed out what may prove a practical difficulty in the way of enforcing this provision in some of the smaller counties, and we shall have to consider whether there cannot be some modification of the clause in the direction he has indicated. It is possible that there may be counties in which some arrangement might be agreed upon other than restricting the medical officer to the work of his office. It might be possible, for instance, to find some method of arranging for the suspension of the prohibition as to private employment, with the consent of the Secretary for Scotland. Under these circumstances, the Government will not offer any opposition to the substitution of the word "shall" for "may."

DR. FARQUHARSON

I think the difficulty could best be met by empowering two or three small counties to combine together for the appointment of a medical officer. It is constantly done in England, and the system has been found to work extremely well, for by means of it the services of highly qualified men have been obtained, and that is much better than getting a little snip of the time of an already over-worked practitionor, who may be elected to discharge the duties in a smaller area.

* MR. BARCLAY

In my opinion, it is desirable that there should be at least one officer for each county. I think it would be unfortunate to have too large districts.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, "That the Clause as amended, stand part of the Bill."

* SIR W. FOSTER

I should like to call attention to the fact that a a very important Amendment is left out with reference to the Sanitary Inspector and I move to insert after "Council," Provided always that the Sanitary Inspector or Sanitary Inspectors under the Act shall he subordinate to the Medical Officer of the district or county to which they are appointed.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The introduction of these words might lead to complications with regard to Inspectors in towns. I have no doubt that the Sanitary Inspectors who would be in the service of the County Council would more or less be under the Scientific and Chief Officer of the Staff.

DR. FARQUHARSON

(Aberdeenshire, W.) It is rather a pity the Amendment is not accepted, as we might have made the Inspector work in harmony with the Medical Officer. I think it is a great pity that it should not be definitely laid down that the opinion of the Medical Officer should be made paramount and supreme, and that the Sanitary Inspector should be made a secondary person.

MR. CALDWELL

If the Sanitary Inspector should be made subordinate to the Medical Officer, you would interpose a difficulty in the way of prosecutions under the Public Health Act.

MR. FINLAY

The words are so very vague that I do not know whether they could be used.

SIR W. FOSTER

The difficulty will be more and more felt as time goes on. If the officers are independent of one another, you will be liable to their clashing in sanitary work, which will be made exceedingly difficult, and perhaps inoperative. However, I will withdraw the Amendment, and leave it to the discretion of the County Council.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20.

Amendment proposed, page 13, line 10, leave out "periodical."—Agreed to.

Amendment proposed, page 13, line 13, leave out from "Board" to end of Clause.—(Dr. Farquharson.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. FIRTH

Where is the control of the County Council over the District Authority if these words be left out? If the Report is not sent in, the contribution is not made.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

My objection is that it is very undesirable to fix the penalty which is to be paid. My opinion is that it should be open to the supervision of the official charged with a public duty to mete out the penalty which should attach to the offence. I think you had better not consider a case of the kind on the ultima ratio of consequences to the defaulter.

MR. FIRTH

We are working under this clause at the present time, and it is important to see why this alteration should be made. The chief object of appointing the Medical Officer to the County Council is that there should be a central control over the Reports from the districts.

DR. CLARK

Supposing a Report is not sent in, and suppose the Council were, not to dismiss the official, the Council would, therefore, be compelled to see that the Reports were sent in. It seems to me that would be a strong inducement to the District Committees to see that the Reports were sent in to the County Council.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

On the suggestion of the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire we have struck out the word "periodical," and accordingly the Reports will go before the County Council. I think that makes it still more undesirable that we should lay down a peremptory rule. In every ease where there was a failure to report, the County Council would stop the allowance for salary. On the whole, it would be much better that the authority of the County Council should be maintained, less by specific threats than by some such course as I have alluded to.

MR. CALDWELL

The effect of this Amendment is to leave out the whole of Sub-section 2.

Question put, and negatived.

MR. FIRTH

These words "from any such Report" seem to govern the whole of the clause; and if that be so, then the County Council must judge of the sanitary state of the district from report only.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

There is something in what the hon. and learned Gentleman says. I would suggest that after "Council," the words "from any such Report" be left out, and then the clause would read generally.

MR. FIRTH

Yes, that would meet the case.

Question, "That those words stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 21.

*MR. HOZIER moved, Clause 21, page 13, line 24, leave out from "board" to "allow," in line 26, and insert "County Council shall expressly otherwise determine."

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

DR. CLARK

I rise for the purpose of getting some information from the Lord Advocate. The clause states that no person shall be appointed who has not qualified for surgery, sanitary science, and midwifery. The latter qualification I consider necessary. The Irish College, I believe, used to give a certificate for midwifery. I think what is really meant is that in all cases a regular medical practitioner shall be appointed, and it is very important to determine whether you intend in the future to compel every Medical Officer of Health to qualify in sanitary science. No man, in my opinion, ought to hold such a position unless he has studied sanitary science. I should like, however, to hear from the Lord Advocate what is the principle underlying this section.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The intention is merely that the Medical Officer shall be a person qualified to practice in all branches of the medical profession. The matter was discussed on the English Bill, and it has been thought right that this provision should be made in the Bill for Scotland.

* MR.F.S.POWELL (Wigan)

Having taken a strong interest in the English Bill, I would say that the idea of this clause is the same as that of the English provisions which were introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds (Sir L. Playfair), who is known to be an eminent authority on such questions.

SIR W. FOSTER

I remember what took place on the English Bill, as I myself placed the clauses on the Paper, which were moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, according to the Act of 1886. The present state of the law is that all medical men on the register shall be qualified in medicine, surgery, and midwifery. I think it would be better if the Lord Advocate would allow two or three years to elapse before insisting upon the full qualification in sanitary science, seeing that in Scotland there is no absence of qualification in midwifery.

* MR. HOZIER

I beg to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following Amendments were made:—Page 13, line 28, omit "midwifery," in order to insert the words "sanitary science or public health;" page 13, line 39, leave out "fifty," in order to insert "thirty"—(Dr. frarquharson); page 14, line 5, leave out "from the district," to "thousand," in line 7.—(Mr. M. Stewart).

Clauses, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 22.

SIR G. CAMPBELL

This is an excellent clause, but I do not think it will be quite effective as it at present stands, seeing that burghs are often the offenders in the matter of river pollution, and that the County Councils will not be able to touch the burghs. I would propose in line 23 to insert after the word "counties," to insert "and burghs." By this Amendment the Secretary for Scotland will have power to assent to joint applications for Provisional Orders from the counties and burghs affected. In this way you would deal with a river throughout the whole of a county, and would not exempt from the operation of the clause that part of a river running through a burgh.

Amendment moved, page 14, line 23, after "counties," insert "and burghs."—(Sir G. Campbell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

The hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten the Act of 1876, which confers on every Sanitary Authority in Scotland the power of enforcing the Rivers Pollution Act. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, the Parochial Boards within the burghs are the Sanitary Authorities; therefore the burghs themselves have the power to enforce the Act. In this clause we propose merely to make County Councils another authority having power to enforce the Act. It would be altogether superfluous to give the burghs in this clause a power they already possess.

SIR G. CAMPBELL

I only propose to amend Sub-section 3 by providing for the appointment of a Joint Committee.

* MR. J. B. BALFOUR

The objection is that it would give a Joint Committee all the powers of a Sanitary Authority, which powers part of the proposed Joint Committee—namely, the burghs—already possess.

MR. CALDWELL

Take the case of a river that passes through a burgh, which burgh pollutes the stream. If that burgh is a Sanitary Authority who ought to enforce the Rivers Pollution Act, you are not likely to get anything done. In such a case it would be desirable that the power of enforcing the Rivers Pollution Act throughout the whole county should be vested in the County Council. This power the County Council would have under the Amendment.

Question put, and negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 23.

Amendment moved, page 14, line 36, after the first "of," insert "promoting or."—(Mr. Hozier.)

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I cannot accept this Amendment. The hon. Member will see that according to the provision in page 23, line 8, the County Council will have power to promote a Bill for the purpose of confirming a Provisional Order made in pursuance of the Act. That will vest the County Councils with the powers that any County or Burgh Authority no w possesses in regard to promoting Bills. I do not think, however, that this Committee would approve of giving County Councils power to promote Bills generally.

* MR. FIRTH

This clause is exactly the same as a clause in the Local Government Act of last year. During the passing of that Act through Committee we had a very serious and extensive discussion on this point, and the opinion of the House was very closely divided. We had upon it, I think, the closest division that was taken in the course of the proceedings on the Bill, the clause without the words giving power to promote Bills being carried by a majority of only 8. I myself am of opinion that the Councils ought to have this power. This clause refers to the Act of Parliament that gives power of promotion to various other authorities. It gives this power to municipal burghs—any municipal burgh in England or Scotland has the power—and yet the County Councils which we ought to desire to make as important and powerful as possible are not to possess it. The Act goes further than that, and says that any Local Board, or body of Commissioners, or body of Trustees acting under any general or local Act of Parliament for the lighting; and cleansing of a district may promote Bills; therefore, the power goes down much lower than the County Authorities. This absence of the power to promote Bills in Parliament seems to me to be one of the greatest absurdities in the English Bill, and it is now proposed to extend it to Scotland—this refusal to the County Councils of powers which you give to infinitely less important bodies. I do not think the Lord Advocate has given any reason why the County Councils should not have this power.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 24.

SIR G. CAMPBELL

I beg to move in line 13, after the word "county," to insert the words, "or large burgh." I think that, seeing that the county will include the small burghs, the large burghs that stand by themselves should have similar power of making bye-laws.

THE CHAIRMAN

The proposal of the hon. Member would not come within the scope of the Bill, which deals with County Government and not with Local Government.

Amendment moved, Clause 24, page 15, line 15, after "county," insert "for the prevention of vagrancy."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson).

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved, Clause 24, page 15, line 23, leave out from "has" to-"and" in line 25.—(Mr. Hozier).

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I think it is desirable that when County Councils frame bye-laws the greatest publicity should be given to the changes-made.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR G. CAMPBELL

I would move the omission of Sub-section 5 in order to ask what its effect will be, because, as I have said, the large burghs being excluded from it, it is difficult to see how these bye-laws can be generally effective.

Amendment moved, "To leave out Sub-section 5."

Question proposed, "That Sub-section 5 stand part of the Clause."

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I am afraid a very rigorous drafting critic would say that these words are surplus-age, but that is the worst that can be said of them. This clause does not carry us within the sacred precincts of a Scotch burgh.

SIR G. CAMPBELL

Are we to understand that it is not competent for the County Councils to make bye-laws for the smaller burghs without the consent of the Town Councils?

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

Yes. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Other Amendments agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 25.

Amendment proposed, page 16, line 13, after "appointment," leave out to end of Clause, and insert— Or remuneration. Where the Parliamentary area of a county or burgh differs from its area within the meaning of this Act, the Secretary for Scotland may determine which shall be the administrative and rating authority under the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts in any portion of such area, and his determination shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, have the same force and effect as if it were enacted in this Act: Provided that such determination shall not limit the powers of the Boundary Commissioners under this Act."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26.

The following Amendments were agreed to:—Page 16, line 32, leave out "hereinafter," and insert "hereinbefore."—(Mr. Hozier.)

Page 16, line 37, after "Acts," insert "or for the latter purpose only, as the case may be."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson).

Clauses 26 and 27 agreed to.

Clause 28.

The following Amendments were agreed to:—Page 17, line 36, leave out "purposes," and after "several," insert, "branches of expenditure;" page 17, line 38, leave out "purpose," and after "several," insert "branch."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Page 17, line 39, leave out "add," and insert "state."—(Mr. Hozier.)

Page 18, line 8, after "are," insert "under the said annual value or are."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Amendment moved, page 18, line 9, after "unfurnished," insert "except in respect of the amount payable by the occupier."—{Mr. Mark Stewart.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

* MR. BARCLAY

I do not think we ought to agree to this. The landlord should pay all the rates as proprietor of the house if it is empty. This may arise through his asking too high a rent for it.

MR. J. P. B. ROBERTSON

I can sympathize with the hon. Member. Where there is an absolute case of un-occupancy the rate should not fall on the owner; and in that sense the Amendment is quite fair.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 156; Noes 97.—(Div. List, No. 209.)

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 29 agreed to.

Clause 30.

Amendment made, page 18, line 39, after "ratepayer," insert "and any officer of Inland Revenue."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 31, agreed to.

Clause 32.

Amendments made, page 19, line 12, leave out after "burgh," to "council," inclusive in line 13.—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Page 19, line 17, leave out "first," and insert "fifteenth."—(Mr. Hozier.)

Page 19, line 18, leave out after "whatever," to end of Clause.—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 33.

Amendments made.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 34.

Amendment proposed, page 20, line 27, after "provided," insert— And from and after the appointed day all provisions in regard to the audit of accounts of any administrative body whose powers and duties are by this Act transferred to the county council are hereby repealed."—(Mr. J. P. B. Robertson.)

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 35.

* MR. D. CRAWFORD

I beg to move to insert at the beginning of the clause— The Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer shall at the request of any county council audit the accounts of such council free of charge. Where such request has not been made. I need not point out to the Committee that this is an important Amendment in the interest of economy, and also of uniformity. The authorities in Scotch counties are obliged to have a valuing officer who is called an assessor, for the purpose of valuing the land in the county for rating, and some years ago they were empowered, if they thought proper, to avail themselves of the services of the Government officer, who is employed to value land for imperial purposes free of charge. Nearly all the counties in Scotland—all but five or six—have availed themselves of that option, and the system has worked exceedingly well.

Amendment proposed, in page 20, line 28, at the beginning of the clause, to insert— The Queen and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer shall at the request of any county council audit the accounts of such council free of charge. Where such request has not been made."—(Mr. Donald Crawford.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. BARCLAY

We have now arrived at a point when I think we may conveniently report Progress.

* MR. W. H. SMITH

We have made great progress, and I do not object to Progress being reported.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.