HC Deb 27 August 1889 vol 340 cc684-719

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1.

Another Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 14, after sub-section (a), to insert the following sub-sections:— (b.) "A local authority may, on the request of the school board for its district or any part of its district, or of any other managers of a school or institution within its district for the time being in receipt of aid from the Department of Science and Art, make, out of any local rate raised in pursuance of this Act, to such extent as may be reasonably sufficient having regard to the requirements of the district, but subject to the conditions and restrictions contained in the last-foregoing subsection, provision in aid of the technical and manual instruction for the time being supplied in schools or institutions within its district, and shall distribute the provision so made in proportion to the nature and amount of efficient technical or manual instruction supplied by those schools or institutions respectively; (c.) Where such other managers of a school or institution receive aid from a local authority in pursuance of this section, the local authority shall, for the purposes of this Act, be represented on the governing body of the school or institution in such proportion as will, as nearly as may be, correspond to the amount of aid given; (d.) If any question arises as to the sufficiency of the provision made under this section, or as to the qualification of any school or institution to participate in any such provision, or as to the amount to be allotted to each school or institution, or as to the extent to which, or mode in which, the local authority is to be represented on the governing body of any such school or institution, the question shall be determined by the Department of Science and Art."—(Mr. Mather.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. CHANNING (Northampton, E.)

I think it very desirable that there should be some further explanation of the full scope of this Amendment. The objections which struck one—and to which I briefly alluded last night—in considering the Amendment are as follows: The hon. Member for the Gorton Division (Mr. Mather) has rather exaggerated the effect of his own proposal, and I think it would be desirable that we should know from the Vice President of the Council exactly how far the interpretation of the hon. Member for the Gorton Division will operate. What I submit, in the first place, is that the Amendment gives no right to the School Boards to initiate in the future, or to expand, any existing form of technical or manual education; and, in the second place, no right is given to the School Board to claim assistance from the Local Authority—to make a claim which cannot be met by a negative. By the retention of the word "may"—and I understand the point has been settled by the withdrawal of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Hanley—the School Board is left in the position that it cannot claim assistance from the rates as a matter of right. The third objection is that you are placing the alternative authority for education— which represents the popular decision as to the persons to whom the education of the district shall be entrusted— on a level with committees of private individuals who, with benevolent intentions get money together for carrying out education, with the best motives, no doubt. I frankly recognise that the Committees of Voluntary Schools have done a noble duty in the past, but I complain that this Amendment places private bodies exactly on the same footing in the eyes of the law as bodies elected by the people under the Education Act. That is a main objection I feel to the Bill. In this connection I would refer to a passage in the Report of the Minority of the recent Royal Commission on Education. They say in the chapter, dealing with the Local Authority— Under the present system, the work of education is, to a large extent, taken out of the hands of the nation to be placed in the bands of ecclesiastical organisations in proportion as they are wealthy and willing to purchase the right to administer the grants voted by Parliament, and to control the education of the people. I am unwilling to place these bodies on the same footing under this Bill. There is a fourth principle I cannot assent to, which is that the rate should go to voluntary bodies without a really popular elective representation. I cannot agree to the proposal unless the representation is such as would carry out the general principles agreed to in 1870. The representation of the County Councils is practically illusory. These Councils are not elected for an educational purpose. They do not represent the interests of the people on the question of whether or not a policy of this kind should be carried out. Then, there is a very important objection which may be taken to the Amendment as a whole, and that is that it will lead to a conflict of demands from various bodies and between the various Local Authorities. And here I will not put the objection in my own language, as much more forcible language has been supplied to every one interested in the question by the principal organ of public opinion this morning. This is what the Times newspaper says:— Primâ facie the provisions of the Bill are objectionable. It certainly tends to confuse the educational jurisdiction of the country. It is conceivable that it may set the 'Local Authority,' thus newly invested with educational power, in antagonism both to the School Boards and to the managers of voluntary schools; and, what is still more important, it may ultimately establish an unpleasant rivalry between the Science and Art Department and the Education Department. This is, perhaps, one of the most important objections which can be taken both to the Amendment and the Bill, and I feel inclined in this connection to quote a remark in a letter addressed to me by one of the greatest authorities on education, who has been referred to more than once. I mean Mr. Lyulph Stanley. He says: — The whole proposal of this Amendment is to my mind chaotic. As to differences which may arise between the Local Authorities or groups of schools, I do not think they should be left to the decision of the Science and Art Department. I consider that where you have to deal with the relations of one Local Body or set of schools with another you ought to have a responsible Department of the Government, like the Education Department, or the Local Government Board, to appeal to. My hon. Friend (Mr. Mather) in his interpretation of his Amendment has expressed very largely what we on this side of the House have really wished to carry out. I challenge that interpretation, and hope, if that interpretation is incorrect and the Vice President of the Council has to admit that the points I have raised are valid, that some effort will be made to introduce in the measure the principles which my hon. Friend really intended to carry out—namely, that no additional Educational Authority shall be set up unless the School Boards neglect this duty or do not exist, and that the Local Authority shall not be permitted to establish schools for this purpose unless the School Board or managers of the schools established for a like purpose fail to provide efficient instruction. Those are the principles we have at heart, and in the few observations in which I have explained them, I have endeavoured, I hope, in a moderate and conciliatory spirit, to ascertain what is the real drift and scope of the Amendment. I think we are justified in going thus fully into these points, as they are of great importance. I may add that the Debates we have hitherto had and the points we have raised have been justified by the Press in every part of the country. I cannot conclude without saying that, whatever the scope of the Amendment may be, my original objection to the whole of this proposal still holds good— namely, that in this Bill we are taking away from the School Boards elected as representatives of the people for matters of education the control over an important branch of secondary education.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN,) St. George's, Hanover Square

I think the general result of the speech of the hon. Member is observable in his last few phrases. It is obvious that he is opposed to the whole spirit of the Bill as it stands. While speaking on a particular Amendment the hon. Member repeated his objections to the general scope of the measure. He asks an explanation of this Amendment, but the Amendment speaks for itself. It is perfectly clear as it stands and needs no explanation. The best way of expressing an opinion on the substance of the Amendment is by voting upon it. The hon. Member objects to the whole framework of the Bill; but I am bound to say that in his remarks he has touched on no new point, the only novelty in his remarks being a quotation from the Press. Beyond that he has only gone over the points he elaborated yesterday.

MR. CHANNING

It seems to me that the reply of the right hon. Gentleman is singularly unfair and singularly ill-calculated to a clear and reasonable settlement of the point before the Committee. I asked what was the scope of the Amendment. I distinctly challenged the Government to say whether they accepted the interpretation put on his Amendment by the hon. Member, and the right hon. Gentleman has given me no answer, but says that the matter must be settled not by argument but by the counting of heads.

MR. HANDEL COSSHAM (Bristol, E.)

I am surprised to hear the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I cannot but remember that he is in favour of simplifying the authorities. This Bill seems tome to introduce utter confusion among the Local Authorities, besides taking School Board work out of the hands of the School Board and handing it over to other Local Bodies. Apart from this, I confess that I cannot quite fully follow the meaning of this clause. I have tried to follow it carefully, but I confess there are certain points about it which I do not quite understand. We are entitled to have it made clear to us. Perhaps if the whole House were here I should prefer to keep silence, but we are only a section of the House, and perhaps one of the greatest objections to legislation at this time of the year is that we are legislating on a great question with only one-tenth of the Members of the House present.

MR. MATHER (Lancashire, S.E., Gorton)

I think it would be useful if at this stage I were permitted to make a few remarks on the Amendment standing in my name. I regret that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made some strong remarks about my hon. Friend (Mr. Channing). After the difficulties which beset the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for South Manchester (Sir H. Roscoe), I saw it would be impossible to pass a Bill for the promotion of technical education so as on the one hand to give the control of the subject entirely to the School Boards, and on the other to give to both School Boards and Voluntary Schools equal rights. On the opposite side of the House there was the strongest objection made to the School Boards having the exclusive right to control secondary and technical education; and on this side there was the strongest objection to allowing all schools to have the same advantages in regard to spending the rates of the ratepayers without obtaining some control over the voluntary schools. There we have a dilemma, which practically brings us to a deadlock, and no pro- gress seemed to be possible in the direction of technical education unless some intermediate course could be pointed out. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council seemed to me to hit on a happy mode, in a general way, of solving the question. He proposed to enlarge and to make more perfect the kind of education now being given under the auspices of the Science and Art Department. That class of education is now being given to some extent by School Boards, but unhappily the School Boards have at present to carry on the system surreptitiously, and they have to contrive by all sorts of means, such as availing themselves of private assistance and charging high fees, to impart the instruction which is needed. In like manner the many privately managed schools which are not denominational schools, have very few of them taken advantage of the opportunities they might obtain from the Science and Art Department. The object of my Amendment is to enable the School Boards to give secondary education without employing those surreptitious means which they are at present obliged to employ. If it be agreed to, they will be enabled to make application to the Local Authority for aid in this matter. The managing committees of other schools will also have the power of applying for assistance out of the rates for the purpose. In the case of the School Boards, they will have entire control of the funds which may be granted to them. The moment, however, a voluntary school becomes a recipient of aid from the rates, it will cease to be an exclusively privately managed school, because representatives of the ratepayers will be placed upon its managing body. In my own City of Manchester the Corporation has some control over the education carried on in the schools, and has a Committee representing it on the Boards of Management, and the same is the case in other towns. The Committee will observe that, under my Amendment, School Boards will, in a permissive sort of way, become secondary Educational Authorities, which they have not hitherto been recognised as being. Now, I hold that it will be a very great advantage indeed to the industrial portion of the country, and by degrees also to the rural districts, if a system of manual and technical instruction can be adopted under such conditions as these. There can be no objection to the proposal on the part of the School Boards, and I think that the Government, in accepting my Amendment, has gone a great distance towards meeting the legitimate aspirations of Members on this side of the House. With regard to their powers, I think there cannot really be any conflict between the Local Authorities. The Local Authority is not compelled to do anything, and it is a healthy element in the Bill that public opinion must first recognise the importance of the Bill and then operate on the Local Authority, which will be bound to act in the matter, though, if it be desired, I will alter the word "shall" into "may." I have, however, the greatest confidence that all the enlightened Town and County Councils throughout the country will take advantage of the Bill and respond to the public spirit which will be evoked in its favour in their localities, so that if the School Board make a request they will endeavour to establish these technical schools in their several districts so as to meet the wants of those-districts. We are told that the School Boards are anxious to do the work, and that the Town Councils do not desire to have the powers conferred by the Bill. In that case what can be-more natural than that the School Boards should make the request, and that the Town and County Councils would most willingly obtain what the School Boards are so well calculated to demand? I believe we owe a great debt of gratitude to those public-spirited citizens who have subscribed large sums for establishing Science and Art and Technical Schools all over the country; but these institutions may not always be carried on in the same way when they have lapsed into other hands, and it is only right that the Local Authorities should be empowered to carry on the work. The Guilds of the country have established some 300 Art and Science and Technical Schools, for which they have asked no assistance, and, although they have been doing most excellent work, they are liable to languish for want of funds. In such cases a small sum—even a few hundreds of pounds—given out of the Imperial Exchequer would have the effect of making these schools live and thrive in our midst for the benefit of the working classes. I do hope, therefore, that the Committee will agree to this Amendment, seeing that it is likely to effect—I do not say a large amount of good, but, at all events, a certain and a definite amount of good. The next step will be, when the time comes, to place the School Boards in a position to control the technical education needed by the country. That will be the next step, but that which is proposed by this Amendment will be the first, and then we shall be able to see whether the Local Authorities, writers for the Press, secretaries of educational institutions, and others interested in the matter, will come to the conclusion we have already arrived at, that the passing of this measure will produce results that will not only be an honour to the Government, but will redound to the credit of those who have assisted in its progress; will not only prove a lasting boon to those who are most interested in such legislation, but a measure fraught with great advantage to the best interests of the country.

MR. PICTON (Leicester)

I do not deny that the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken is, on the whole, a well-meant Amendment, and a considerable improvement on the Bill as it was at first introduced; but I regret to say that it does not fully meet our objections. The hon. Gentleman has said that at present the School Boards are not allowed to give a certain kind of education, which he terms secondary, in the shape of technical instruction; but can we be sure that he is right in his interpretation of the law? An important opinion has been given by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Stockton (Sir H. Davey) to the effect that the School Boards have, under the existing law, full power to give both manual and technical instruction. Therefore I am not ready to concede that the School Boards are avowedly and undeniably without such power. But even if it were so, what does the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mather) propose by his Amendment with regard to the action of the School Boards? Those Boards are elected by the ratepayers as a Local Authority just as much as the Town and County Councils. They are elected for the purpose of carrying out the educational work of their districts, and while the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Mather) does not propose the serious humiliation I am about to call attention to, his Amendment assents to and confirms it—namely, that bodies elected by the ratepayers, and in whom, therefore, the ratepayers have expressed their confidence, are to go cap in hand to the Local Authority set up by this Bill, and say to them, "If you please, will you give us a penny in the £1 for the purpose of carrying on the work of technical education?" I trust that hon. Members opposite will assist us in the endeavour to save the School Boards such a humiliation.

MR. TOMLINSON (Preston)

I rise to order. I wish to know whether the hon. Gentleman is in order in raising the question of the School Boards on this Amendment.

THE CHAIRMAN

I think the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Picton) is hardly in order, inasmuch as that part of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Gorton on which he is animadverting has already been affirmed by the Committee.

MR. PICTON

As that is the ease I will not press the argument any further. I was only endeavouring to show why we on this side of the House are not satisfied with the Amendment, which I understood the hon. Member for Gorton to say was one which, in his opinion, ought to reconcile us to the Bill. Still, we are disposed, if possible, to further amend the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman, and if that is done it is possible that the Bill may be made acceptable; but if we are to take it as it is, it will by no means lead to an agreement.

VISCOUNT CRANBORNE (Darwen)

I wish the Committee to understand that although this Amendment of the hon. Member for Gorton is accepted as a means of passing the Bill, still it must not be considered that the concession is all on one side. We on this side of the House do not approve of the Amendment absolutely; but we are quite willing to accept it for the purpose of enabling the Committee to arrive at a decision. The hon. Member for Gorton has said that no school would be qualified to come under the operation of this Amendment unless it is already in receipt of a grant from the Science and Art Department. I wish to ask whether that does not apply to School Board schools equally with others?

MR. MATHER

Yes, that is so.

MR. H. J. WILSON (Holmfirth)

I regret that we should have had so early this evening a repetition of the scolding which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave us last night, and I think we are indebted to my hon. Friend near me (Mr. Mather) for the dignified rebuke he administered to the right hon. Gentleman. What we on this side of the House say is that the Bill, as it was originally introduced, was a thoroughly bad Bill, and this view of the Bill is now pretty generally admitted. At all events, the hon. Member for Gorton distinctly said so; and as we hold the same opinion, we want to amend it in such a way as to make it more acceptable than it is. The hon. Member for Gorton has already greatly improved the measure, some of the Amendments that have been made in it having been great improvements, and I do not understand why we should be scolded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for our efforts to amend the Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer scarcely answered a single argument used against this Amendment; all he did was to urge us to go to a Division; and it is not at all unlikely that we shall go to more than one Division before we have done with the Bill. I am, however, not surprised at the right hon. Gentleman's conduct, which may, to some extent, be accounted for by the severe criticism which the Press almost without exception has applied to the Government for the way it has dealt with this Bill. [Cries of "Question."] I was only endeavouring to find an apology for the warmth of the right hon. Gentleman. Our desire is, if possible, to make the Bill a better one than it is. Indeed, I am wrong in saying "better," because that implies that it was good to begin with; therefore, I will say less bad. I do not think the hon. Member for Gorton has fully answered the remarks of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Channing). What we want is to get the Bill put into such a form that we can give it some sort of approval; and I say to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer we do not feel ourselves in a position to accept as it now stands this miserable half measure. I hope, therefore, we may have some further statement on behalf of the Government.

MR. GOSCHEN

I can only express my desire to see this Bill passed through its remaining stages, and my great regret if anything I have said has produced a wrong impression. All I desired to do was to urge the expediency of making some progress with the Bill. I am afraid that in the intense anxiety of hon. Members to improve the Bill they will run the risk of not passing it at all, because the time for the discussion of it is absolutely limited. The Bill must get through Committee this evening, and hon. Members know that it will have to get through the Report stage to-morrow. If this be not done, it will be absolutely impossible to pass the Bill this Session. I, therefore, appeal to hon. Members opposite to allow us to make progress with the measure now. I had no intention to scold hon. Members; I have only asked them to assist in the endeavour to pass the Bill.

MR. WOODALL (Hanley)

I am sure I have done my best to assist in making-progress with this Bill; but the House and the Committee have suffered from the fact that the Bill has not been discussed on its general principles, because of there having been no Debate on the Second Reading. I cannot help feeling that we should have derived some advantage if a little larger latitude could have been allowed last night with the object of removing some of the difficulties felt by Members of the Opposition. The Vice President has pledged himself to insert a clause saving all the existing rights of School Boards, and I have asked the right hon. Gentleman to define them. School Boards are at present practically limited to primary instruction or higher primary instruction; but by this Amendment a School Board will be constituted an authority for secondary instruction of an advanced tend. As to the Bill being employed to assist denominational teaching, I must reiterate the view of the hon. Member for Gorton that the measure should contain such restrictions and definitions that no institution will be entitled to receive grants from local rates which has not already satisfied the Science and Art Department as to the character, the efficacy, and the sufficiency of its teaching of technical subjects. The apprehensions of my hon. Friends near me are really unfounded; and it would be impossible under this measure to do anything except give the technical and manual training which it is designed to advance. The Science and Art Department will judge of the bona fides of the instruction given, and a better security they could not have. I think that the Amendment of my hon. Friend would remove the difficulty which has been honestly felt in some quarters as to the operation of the Bill.

MR. A. O'CONNOK (Donegal, E.)

I desire, after the very significant remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to know whether it is worth our while to remain out of bed any longer in order to discuss this Bill? I cannot quite gather from the observations that have fallen from the Treasury Bench what is really intended to be done. It rather seems to me that this Debate is being allowed to sink to the level of a mere petty Party fight; and if that be so, I say at once, "A plague o' both your Houses." For my own part, I approach this question purely in the interests of the working class, and for their sake I am prepared to stay here as long as may be necessary in order to pass the Bill; but from the remarks just made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would seem that there is, in the minds of the Government, some hesitation as to the course they should take, and that it is doubtful whether they will not at the last moment abandon the Bill. It would also seem as if they wanted to throw the odium of that abandonment on hon. Members sitting above the Gangway on this side of the House. All I have to say is that if this is what is in their minds, they had better tell us so at once. Let them say this, and we shall understand what is the real attitude of the Government. But if, on the other hand, they have made up their minds to stay here and see the Bill through Committee, then I say they ought so to inform us. But the observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer did appear to me to be so insidious that all I could gather from them was that, if it could only be established that the blame for defeating the Bill could be thrown on the shoulders of hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House, the Bill would be abandoned by the Government.

MR. GOSCHEN

I am not sorry the hon. Member for Donegal has made the observations that have just fallen from him. I may say, in answer to his remarks, that I think the minority have it now in their power to prevent the Bill from passing. Hon. Members know perfectly well that the Prorogation must take place very shortly, and that it is impossible to protract the Session many days longer. If hon. Members will give the Government a hearty assurance that they will consent to finish th6 Committee stage to-night, and will refrain from crowding the Paper with Amendments on the Report stage, I shall be very pleased, for the Government attach the greatest possible importance to the measure, and are most anxious to carry it through. But this period of the Session is a time when even a small minority is extremely powerful, and can defeat a Bill if it chose to do so. Yesterday the opponents of the Bill made a Motion to report Progress at the very beginning of the proceedings on the Bill, and to-day there has been a similar Motion. That seems to indicate that the minority are determined to prevent the Bill from passing. If pro- gress had been made this evening, if there were any sign of a disposition to facilitate proceedings, the Government would be prepared to sit on until any hour in the morning. In these circumstances, I shall be very glad if some hon. Member amongst those who oppose the Bill will speak out frankly, and say whether his friends will give a fair undertaking that, subject to a reason able amount of discussion, the Bill will be allowed to pass through Committee to-night, and that the Report stage will be finished to-morrow.

MR. PICTON

It appears to me that the best thing I can do is to move that you, Sir, report Progress. The hon. Member for Donegal has stated that the Debate is descending to the level of a Party fight; but I venture to say that it is in no small Party spirit, nor any spirit of envy of this or of that denomination, that we have taken the position we have assumed. We have taken our stand on the common-sense principle that public money ought not to be spent except by public representatives. I do maintain it is little short of a scandal, if I may venture to use the word, that a Bill of this importance should be pressed through in this manner in the small hours of the morning towards the end of the Session. I have to move that Progress be reported. I do it as a protest against the course which is being pursued, and I am quite prepared to take the responsibility and to defend my conduct in the matter, either in this House or outside.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Pieton.)

MR. M'LAREN (Cheshire, Crewe)

I hope the Government will persevere in their attempt to pass this measure. I do not share the view expressed by my hon. Friends, although I have no doubt that they have a genuine fear that this Bill will be used in the interests of denominational education. I think these fears of hon. Members are greater than the circumstances justify, and that the good which the Bill will effect will far outweigh the possible harm. The valuable principle of applying rate-aid to technical education will he established, and of course if the Bill requires amending it can be done by future legislation. If we defeat this Bill we may be sure that the existing Parliament will not bring in a better one, and there is a considerable probability that if any Liberal Government attempted to do so they would meet with defeat. I therefore hope the Government will ask their supporters to sit up to any hour rather than allow this Bill to be defeated. I shall be glad to remain to help them.

MR. H. J. WILSON

I do protest against this Coercion policy of the Government in endeavouring to force Bills through the House at this hour of the morning. I know of no reason why we are bound to have the prorogation this week. We are perfectly willing to discuss the various Amendments on the Paper at a reasonable time, and day by day, but I do protest against being kept up all night in order to do this.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 78.—(Div. List, No. 350.)

Original Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HALLEY STEWART (Lincolnshire, Spalding)

The object of the next Amendment which stands in my name is to secure that the Local Authority shall, on the request of the School Board, or may, at the request of any other body, take action under the clause. I am distinctly opposed to the Local Authority dominating any authority elected for educational purposes, and I cannot understand why hon. Members opposite, as managers of voluntary schools, should object to this proposal.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, in Clause 1, line 1, to leave out "may" and insert "shall."

MR. H. J. WILSON

I am entirely in favour of the object which has suggested this change in the clause which my hon. Friend desires to make. I think the object he has in view is reasonable, and, on the whole, desirable. But still, under the circumstances, I think it would be better to accept the words proposed by the hon. Member for Gorton, rather than to adopt the word "shall," for we may perhaps find ourselves in a difficulty in regard to these words later on.

MR. PICTON

I also agree with my hon. Friend, although I am not prepared to say that any little school in any village should be able to compel the Local Authority to furnish it with money for the purposes of this Act, whether or not it thinks it expedient.

Amendment put, and negatived.

MR. H. J. WILSON

The object of the next Amendment is to give the School Board breathing time to make applications under the Act.

MR. TOMLINSON

I rise to order. Does not this Amendment raise a question which was decided last night?

THE CHAIRMAN

It is very much on the same principle, but not sufficiently distinct to prevent this Amendment being moved.

MR. H. J. WILSON

I contend that there should be reasonable time given to the School Boards to make the application under the clause, and it ought not to be forgotten that the School Boards are elected by the people at large at considerable trouble and expense, that they are not confined to one political Party, and that they are entitled to reasonable consideration. There ought to be no risk that the School Board might be forestalled for want of a reasonable time.

Amendment proposed to proposed Amendment, Clause 1, page 1, line 3, after "or," insert "failing such request from the School Board, then at the request."

Question put, "That those words be inserted in the proposed Amendment."

THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir W. HART DYKE,) Kent, Dartford

I am afraid that I cannot accept this Amendment. I have already reminded the hon. Member that the proposals embodied in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Gorton are in the nature of a compromise accepted by the Government, and if we adopt this Amendment its effect will be to utterly destroy that compromise.

Amendment put, and negatived.

MR. HALLEY STEWART

I do not think that the next Amendment contravenes any principle which has been urged in this discussion. The only point it raises is which Local Authority shall be represented on the management of the school or institution receiving aid out of the rates for technical instruction—whether it shall be the Town Council or the School Board. I venture to think it ought to be the latter, because the members of it are specially elected to look after educational matters.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, in line 14, after the word? "section" to insert the words "the School Board, where one exists, and where not."

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."

MR. CHANNING

May I suggest to my hon. Friend that it would be better to adopt the Amendment standing in my name which immediately follows, and which provides for the insertion of the words:— The School Board, if such school or institution is in a School Board district, and in any other district, elsewhere any other Local Authority as hereinafter defined in this Act, and having jurisdiction in such district.

MR. HALLEY STEWART

I am quite willing to adopt those words.

Question, "That leave be given to withdraw the Amendment," put, and negatived.

MR. CHANNING

I wish once more to enter my protest against the exclusion of authorities elected by the people for educational purposes, for functions which it is only proper they should discharge. The question here is as to what body shall be represented on the governing bodies of private institutions which may receive aid out of the rates for the purposes of this Act. I certainly think the School Board is the most suitable authority to be represented.

MR. BRYN ROBERTS (Carnarvonshire, Eifion)

What is the objection to this Amendment? It seems a very reasonable proposal. I do think we might be told why the Government will not accept it.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 13; Noes 81.—(Div. List, No. 351.)

Original Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HALLEY STEWART

By my next Amendment I desire to secure that the representation of the Local Authority shall be to the extent of a clear majority. There are several Amendments on the Paper which point in this direction, and I do not care much which is accepted. I understand the Government are willing to accept one in the name of the hon. Member for Holmfirth, but I do not think that goes far enough.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, in line 15, after the word "represented," to insert the words "by a clear majority."—(Mr. Halley Stewart.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."

SIR W. HART DYKE

I hope the hon. Member will not press this Amendment, as we intend to accept that of the hon. Member for the Holmfirth Division.

MR. H. J. WILSON

I am glad that the Government are prepared to accept some of the Amendments we have put down. At the same time I believe that that proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for the Spalding Division will far better secure the object we have in view, and I therefore hope that he will not give way. I should have thought we were all agreed that where the ratepayers' money is to be expended, their representatives should have effective control over the expenditure, and they cannot have that unless they possess a clear majority on the governing body.

MR. WOODALL

I am sorry my hon. Friend has accepted so ungraciously the important concession which has been made by the right hon. Gentle- man in charge of this Bill. I think the concession is a most important one.

MR. PICTON

This Amendment only carries out the principle embodied in Sub-section 2 of the clause, which declines to allow any Local Authority to delegate to any Committee the power of raising a rate or borrowing money. That is precisely the position we want to take up with regard to the managers of schools which receive aid from the local rates. We think that the Local Authority should not delegate to the school managers the power of applying this money, but that it should be responsible for the administration of the money, as well as the raising it. Unless you give the Local Authority a clear majority it will not have this power.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 76.—(Div. List, No. 352.)

MR. H. J. WILSON

In regard to the next Amendment, I desire to thank the right hon. Gentleman and the Government for accepting it. I certainly had no intention of being ungracious when I said I favoured the one proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for the Spalding Division.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, in line 17, to leave out the words "amount of aid given," and to insert the words Proportion which the aid given by the local authority bears to the contribution made by the subscribers to the cost of the technical or manual instruction given in the school or institution aided."—(Mr. H. J. Wilson.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'amount of aid given' stand part of the proposed Amendment."

SIR W. HART DYKE

I think it will be necessary to make a slight alteration, and I would suggest the omission of the words "by the subscribers," and the insertion "from all sources other than money provided by Parliament."

MR. M'LAEEN

I think the Amendment on the Paper, as proposed by my hon. Friend, is infinitely the better one. The revenue of a school comes from three sources—the voluntary subscriptions, the grant out of the rates and taxes and the fees paid by children. Now, the managers should have an amount of representation proportionate to the voluntary subscriptions, and the ratepayers should be represented proportionately to the grant made out of the rates. I do not think the fees and Government grant should be brought into the question at all, and I therefore trust that my hon. Friend will adhere to his original proposal.

VISCOUNT CRANBORNE

I hold that the fees stand on the footing of voluntary subscriptions. No one can be compelled to attend these technical schools, and if parents send their children to them it will be a purely voluntary proceeding. I therefore think the fees should be counted as voluntary subscription.

MR. BEYN ROBERTS

I demur to the proposition that the fees stand on the same footing as voluntary subscriptions, and I certainly see no reason why they should be taken into consideration, in order to give the school managers a larger share of representation than they are entitled to in respect of the voluntary subscriptions.

MR. HALLEY STEWART

A person attending a technical institution, whether established by one denomination or another, goes there for the sole purpose of obtaining technical instruction, and does not consider to what denomination the institution belongs. The fees paid, therefore, ought not to be treated as having the same privileges of representation as attach to voluntary subscriptions. I hope the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, will re-consider his proposition.

MR. WOODALL

I venture to suggest that the difference is so slight that the Government would do well to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member as it stands.

Question put, and negatived.

Original Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "by the subscribers" and insert the words "from all sources other than money provided by Parliament."—(Sir W. Hart Dyke.)

Question put, "That the words 'by the subscribers' stand part of the proposed Amendment to the Amendment."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 72—(Div. List, No. 353.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'From all sources other than money provided by Parliament' be there inserted in the Amendment to the Amendment."

MR. BRYN ROBERTS

I wish to make an addition to the Amendment so that it shall read—"other than school fees and money provided by Parliament." That would leave Trustees the benefit of all subscriptions, endowments, and matters of that kind, verbally excluding fees and Parliamentary Grants.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to the Amendment, after the word "them" to insert the words "school fees and."—(Mr. Bryn Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. GOSCHEN

The very form in which you put the question, Sir, shows the position in which hon. Members are putting the Committee and the Bill. Here is an Amendment practically accepted by my right hon. Friend in order to meet the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite. To that an Amendment is moved and the Committee have decided upon it. Now another Amendment is moved, in a manner almost unprecedented. It is extremely difficult to conduct our proceedings in this way. I make an appeal to hon. Members not to occupy time with such details as these, but to discuss the really important matters to be decided. This is an Amendment upon an Amendment which is itself an Amendment accepted by the Government to meet the views of hon. Members. I trust the Committee will proceed with the Bill in a business-like spirit.

MR. M'LAREN

The right hon. Gentleman is in error on one point. It was the Vice President of the Council who started with an Amendment to the Amendment of my hon. Friend, to leave out the words, "by the subscribers." If the right hon. Gentleman had accepted the Amendment in the form in which it appears on the Paper, he would have saved half-an-hour's discussion, but he yielded to the pressure of hon. Gentlemen behind him, and so this delay has occurred. It really is a very important point. We are not going back on the old ground or raising a trivial Amendment; it is really a very important point whether fees shall be included. We maintain that the representatives of the Local Authority should be in proportion to the money given from the rates, and the representatives of the subscribers in proportion to the subscriptions. The money obtained by fees and by Government grant should not be reckoned. It is a matter on which we feel very strongly, even those of us who have voted with the Government. We all voted against the Government last time.

VISCOUNT CRANBORNE

Though I fully understand the position of the hon. Gentleman, yet we really have argued out the question and taken a Division upon it, and it is a prostitution of Parliamentary forms to divide again.

MR. BRYN ROBERTS

We understood that the right hon. Gentleman was going to accept the suggestion made from this side, and it was a surprise to us when it was challenged. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has referred to the spirit in which this Bill has been treated, but it is the spirit the Government have displayed which has caused all this irritation. They first of all announced they were willing to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Holmfirth, and on that being moved they move an Amendment to it, an obstructive Amendment which totally alters its scope and purpose. The gist of the Amendment of my hon. Friend was the proportion of the aid from the Local Authority to the contributions, and this is entirely altered by the Government Amendment.

MR. A. O'CONNOR

On a point of order, Sir, is it strictly regular to have before us an Amendment to a proposed Amendment? Is not that too remote?

MR. H. J. WILSON

We have divided on one already.

THE CHAIRMAN

It is unusual, but I do not know that it is disorderly.

MR. H. J. WILSON

The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President said he would accept the Amendment with a verbal alteration, and we naturally thought he meant to carry out the same purpose, but removing some ambiguity or making the meaning clearer. That is surely the meaning of a verbal Amendment, but the Vice President's proposed alteration of my Amendment is not verbal, but very material. The point we are insisting upon is not unimportant. We are contending for an increased representation of those who find the public money. I would point out also that, in addition, there is the income from Corporation property, for instance, that could be applied to the proportion.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 70.—(Div. List, No. 354.)

MR. H. J. WILSON

I think the Government are treating us exceedingly unfairly. They promised to accept the Amendment with a verbal alteration, and they have proposed something entirely different. The Government seems desirous of provoking Divisions and wasting time. They may put upon me if they like the responsibility of obstruction, but I move, Sir, "That you do now leave the Chair."

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. H..J. Wilson.)

The Committee divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 74.—(Div. List, No. 355.)

Question, That the words 'from all sources other than money provided by Parliament,' be there inserted in the Amendment to the Amendment, put and agreed to.

Question, That the words 'proportion which the aid given by the local authority bears to the contribution made from all sources other than money provided by Parliament to the cost of the technical or manual instruction given in the school or institution aided,' be inserted in the proposed Amendment to the Amendment, put, and agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, proposed.

MR. HALLEY STEWART

The Amendment I now have to propose raises no question of local jealousy whatever. I do not know whether the Vice President will accept it. I am not only giving expression to my personal opinion. If he will turn to the Report of the Royal Commission, he will find that the Commissioners have a distinct recommendation exactly in the direction indicated by my proposal. I should think it vain to attempt to induce the Government to accept the Amendment by any argument of my own, but I hope, supported by the authority I have mentioned, they will accept it.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, in line 24, to leave out the words "Department of Science and Art," and insert the words "Committee of Council on Education."—(Mr. Halley Stewart.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'Department of Science and Art' stand part of the proposed Amendment."

MR. WOODALL

I appeal in the very strongest terms to my hon. Friend not to press this. It is perfectly true that the Royal Commission on Technical Education in reference to elementary schools did propose the Education Department as the authority in connection with this instruction, but we are now doing something outside and beyond ordinary elementary schools. Having in mind the difficulties we have had in reference to certain subjects, I think it will be acknowledged the Science and Art Department is the better authority.

MR. CHANNING

I hope my hon. Friend will persist in his Amendment, and that the Vice President will accept it. He may say no, but there is good ground for it. I consider this essentially a local government question. The Science and Art Department is all very well to carry on examinations in drawing and elementary science, but it is not the authority to which we should delegate the delicate and difficult duties of adjusting the rights of Local Authorities under this Bill. The Amendment raises a question of much importance, and I hope my hon. Friend will persist with it. I do not go with my hon. Friend the Member for Hanley. I think it is of the greatest importance for the future that we should consolidate our Educational Authority. We have the example of Scotland, where, the Education Department has much wider duties. The Amendment is an important one, and I hope it will be adhered to.

MR. MATHER

It seems to me that though the Education Department is supreme in educational matters, it is especially the function of the Science and Art Department to determine such matters as are here concerned.

MR. H. J. WILSON

I scarcely see the object of the Amendment. I am sorry to say I have not such acquaintance with the work of the two Departments requisite to enable me to determine the point. Perhaps one of my hon. Friends who understand the scope of the work of the Departments will explain the matter a little more fully.

MR. HALLEY STEWART

I do not think the hon. Member for Hanley has quite caught the scope of the Amendment. It is not an Amendment which will throw upon the Committee of Council on Education investigation into all the details of technical schools; it is simply to settle questions that may arise as to the sufficiency of the provision, and the proportion and extent of representation—points which surely can be settled as well by one authority as the other.

MR. MATHER

The sufficiency will depend upon the efficiency of the school, and, therefore, must be adjudicated on by the Science and Art Department.

Question put, and agreed to.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, to add at the end the words Provided that no such provision, out of any rate raised in pursuance of this Act, shall be made in aid of technical or manual instruction in any school conducted for private profit."—(Mr. Channing.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

MR.CHANNING

I have an Amendment on the Paper to leave out Subsection (b), but as the Amendment to substitute the School Board for the Local Authority was not carried, I will not move it.

MR. H. J. WILSON

I beg to move the next Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Merionethshire (Mr. Thomas Ellis).

SIR W. HART DYKE

Agreed.

Amendment proposed, in Clause 1, page 1, line 22, to add at the end the words Nothing in this Act shall he construed so as to interfere with any existing powers of School Boards with respect to the provision of technical and manualinstruction."—(Mr. R. J. Wilson.)

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2.

SIR W. HART DYKE

I beg to withdraw Clause 2.

Question, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4.

MR. PICTON

I beg to move the next Amendment on the Paper, and I venture to hope that it will receive care- ful and candid consideration. It proposes to make an exception in the case of London, and to render the School Board the special authority.

MR. TOMLINSON

I rise to order. I submit that this Amendment is out of order after the rejection of the Amendments to the first clause. The Committee has decided that the Local Authority shall be a body outside the existing School Board, in order that it shall act impartially as between the Board Schools and denominational schools. I submit, therefore, that this Amendment cannot be moved.

THE CHAIRMAN

The decision the Committee as arrived at on the general principle does not render inadmissible a proposal to except London.

MR. PICTON

I submit that the case of London is exceptional. London is exceptional in its population and in its local organisation, and this exceptional character has been acknowledged in various Acts of Parliament, notably in the Elementary Education Act of 1870. Nowhere in the country is there so vast a population, and nowhere are such varied districts brought under the direction of one School Board. In the course of the discussion on the Elementary Education Act it was at first proposed to divide London into a considerable number of small districts; but ultimately it was decided that the whole of the Metropolis should be under one School Board. The operations of the London School Board are much wider than those of any other School Board in the country or in the world, and its experience is greater because of the variety of its operations; and I venture to say, from my own personal experience, that its perception of the need of manual and technical instruction is far more thorough than can conceivably be the case with any body that can be substituted for it. This School Board has borne fruit in a number of Reports of Committees bearing upon the curriculum through which the children should be put in the schools, and those Reports have universally recognised the enormous importance of manual and technical instruction. I remember myself being on a small Committee of that Board, presided over by Professor Huxley, which was strongly of opinion that manual instruction should be given by the Board. Since that time the idea has been considerably developed, and the use of tools has been taught—that is since I was a member of the Board. Now, can the same experience be predicated of the County Council, which now governs a certain number of the local affairs of London? I have not the least desire to say anything disrespectful of the London County Council. I admire it very much, and I should not wish to discourage it in any degree whatever; but it certainly was not elected for the purpose of looking after education, and it has a great deal on its hands—quite as much as it can accomplish for the present. Besides, before long the County Council will have other duties conferred upon it, so that I do not think any candid persons can say that the County Council is as fit as the School Board to do this work. It is suggested in some quarters that School Boards will be unfair to denominational schools. I do not think the history of the School Board for London shows that there is any fear of such a thing in London. The circumstances of the School Board of London have led to an enormous increase in the number of School Board schools in proportion to denominational schools, but that has not led to the interests of denominational schools being ignored. They have been respected rather too much, in fact. The Board has constantly numbered amongst its members a considerable proportion of clergy; there is now a larger number of clergy on it than there ever were before; and a clergyman has presided with great ability over its deliberations for more than three years. Under these circumstances, I do not think any one can say that the Board will deal unfairly with denominational schools. On the whole, therefore, I contend that the case of London is exceptional, and that London should have special treatment. I move the Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 11, after the word "mean," to insert the words "in London the School Board for London, and elsewhere shall mean."—(Mr. Picton.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR W. HART DYKE

I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment, as it would alter the whole scope of the Bill in its application, to five millions of people. The Bill is a compromise as it stands; but if this Amendment were accepted it would raise, at any rate in London, the whole question of Board Schools as against voluntary schools.

MR. STUART (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

I regret that the Government do not see their way to accept this Amendment. London has been regarded as exceptional in a great many Acts—for instance, in the Act constituting County Councils—and I think it should have been treated exceptionally in this case. The hon. Member who has moved the Amendment has shown that there are no difficulties to be anticipated, such as might be expected in connection with other School Boards. It is a great pity that the County Council should be regarded as a mere vehicle for the collection of rates which other people are to spend. For this reason, if for no other, I would support the Amendment.

MR. CAUSTON (Southwark, West)

I hope on this Amendment we shall have the support of hon. Gentlemen opposite who represent London Divisions. I trust also that we shall have the support of the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham, who acts as Chancellor of the Exchequer to the School Board for London. I would ask the Government to re-consider their decision.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 17; Noes 69.—(Div. List, No. 356.)

The following Amendments were agreed to:—

Clause 4, page 2, line 12, to leave out "or enact."—(Sir W. Hart Dyke.)

Clause 4, page 2, line 22, to leave out Sub-section (d).—(Mr. Bryn Roberts.)

Clause 4, page 2, line 27, after "county," to insert "for the requirements of which such expenses have been incurred."—(Mr. Channing.)

Clause 4, page 2, line 28, to leave out Sub-section (4).—(Mr. Channing.)

Clause 4, page 2, line 40, to leave out "or of a Rural Sanitary Authority."—(Mr. Channing.)

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 10, after "instruction," to insert "including modern languages and commercial and agricultural subjects,"—(Sir W. Hart Dyke,)—Agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6.

MR. A. O'CONNOR

I think the Committee is to be congratulated on the progress it has made this evening towards the completion of this Bill; and as the measure is one that is likely to confer great benefits on England, I would ask whether there is any reason why it should not be applied to Ireland? In order that it may be so applied, I move to omit from Clause 6 the words "or Ireland."

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to omit the words "or Ireland."—(Mr. A. O'Connor.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'or Ireland' stand part of the Clause."

SIR W. HART DYKE

I think the notice given by the lion. Member for Donegal, with regard to the inclusion of Ireland, is rather short. I do not think, however, that there would be any objection to the extension of the Bill to Ireland, if it could be shown that Ireland possessed the necessary Local Authorities. No doubt there are such Local Authorities in places like Dublin, Cork, Belfast and some other towns; but I would prefer that the hon. Gentleman should allow me a little breathing time, so that I may look into the matter and confer with him upon it.

MR. E. HAEEINGTON (Kerry, W.)

I cannot understand why there should be any opposition to the proposal unless it be that during the last few nights the Irish Representatives have fallen out with their friends on this side of the House because they have supported the Government in carrying this Bill, and those hon. Gentlemen now desire to punish us by refusing to apply the Bill to Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman says he has had no notice of this Amendment; but, on the other hand, he has had no notice that any one is opposed to it. There are at the present time a certain number of Local Authorities in Ireland to whom the working of the Bill might be entrusted, and I cannot see any reason why it should not be made to apply to Ireland as far as it can be made to serve a useful purpose.

MR. PICTON

I can assure the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kerry that there will be no opposition from this side of the House to the proposal to include Ireland in order to inflict a punishment on the Irish Representatives for their support to the Government on this Bill. In the circumstances in which Ireland is placed, the Bill might well be usefully applied to that country, but England stands in a different position.

MR. A. O'CONNOR

After what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council, I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment for the present.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

A Clause (Audit of Accounts,)—(Sir W. Hart Dyke,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. CHANNING

I think it hardly fair to expect us to accept a clause which has not been printed and of which we have had no notice. I would suggest that it should be put down for the Report.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RITCHIE, ) Tower Hamlets, St. George's

It is merely a clause applying the audit which takes place under the Public Health Act to this Bill, and only requires that the accounts of receipts and expenditure of the Urban Authorities under this Bill shall be audited in like manner as the accounts of receipts and expenditure under the Public Health Act, 1875.

SIR W. HART DYKE

There are two clauses.

Question put, and agreed to.

New Clause (Provision for entrance examination,)—(Mr. Atherley Jones,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.

New Clause (Memorial to Education Department,)—(Mr. Seale-Hayne,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. SEALE-HAYNE (Devon, Ashburton)

The object of this clause is" to apply some impulse to the Local Authorities in order that they may put into operation the provisions of the Bill. We have heard from the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Mr. Dixon) that even in an enlightened place like Birmingham the expense of putting this Bill in force would prevent the Local Authorities from doing so; and if that is the case in Birmingham we may expect that the fear of adding an extra penny to the rates would prevent the Local Authorities elsewhere from putting the Bill in operation. I propose to adopt the same principle as is adopted in the Allotments Act of allowing a certain number of persons interested in putting the Bill into operation to memorialise the Education Department on the insufficiency of the provision for technical education in their district. In that Act the number is 10 Parliamentary electors; but my proposition is less drastic than that. I propose that any 50 ratepayers resident in the district may memorialise the Department for the object stated in the clause.

SIR W. HART DYKE

I am sorry I cannot see my way to the acceptance of this clause. We are now making a great educational experiment, and I think it ought to be permissive and not compulsory in its character. If I consented to this, there are other things I might also be called upon to accept of a like character, To give the compulsory power asked for by this clause might have a very injurious effect on the operation of the Bill, and I must therefore decline to accept the proposal.

MR. CHANNING

I hope my hon. Friend will press the principle embodied in his Amendment—a principle which it is important we should adopt not only in this, but in other Bills. I supported similar proposals in the discussions on the Allotments Bill, and I believe if they had been adopted they would have largely helped to prevent that measure from proving a dismal failure all over the country. I think it most desirable that the inhabitants of every district should have the means of protesting against the inertness or inactivity of the Local Authority, and I hope my hon. Friend will press this Amendment to a Division.

MR. PICTON

I venture to hope that my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment to a Division. For my part, I do not envy the position in which any 50 ratepayers would be placed by bringing down the Education Department on the Local Authority, in order to compel their follow-citizens to pay an extra rate of a penny in the £1, for the purpose of putting this Bill into operation.

Question put, and negatived.

New Clause (Power of School Board to appeal to Education Department,)—(Mr. Handel Cossham,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. HANDEL COSSHAM

If we do not give the power asked for by this clause, that an inquiry may be ordered by the Department on the application of any School Board, and the Local Authority be directed to make provision for technical or manual instruction the operation of the Bill will be to a large extent frustrated. The Amendment is a very practical one, and I hope the Government will accept it. It is not at all hostile to the Bill, but will lead to its being adopted.

SIR W. HART DYKE

I am sorry to say I cannot accept the clause, and I hope it will not be pressed.

Question put, and negatived.

New Clause (Power to School Boards to contribute,)—(Mr. James Stuart,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. J. STUART

I beg, on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, to move this clause. It is a step towards free education, and I hope the Government will accept it.

SIR W. HART DYKE

I am sorry to say that I am not able to accept the clause.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 23; Noes 62.—(Div. List, No. 357.)

MR. WOODHEAD (York, W. E., Spen Valley)

The new clause which I have to propose will enable the School Boards to establish and maintain these schools. I think it would be most invidious to exclude these Boards from participating in technical instruction.

New Clause (School Board may establish schools under the Act,)—(Mr. Woodhead,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

SIR W. HART DYKE

I am afraid I cannot accept this clause. The hon. Member says he desires to enable School Boards to establish schools for technical instruction; but there is nothing in the Bill which would prevent the Boards from having classes in their existing school buildings for the purposes of this Act.

MR. CHANNING

I think my hon. Friend desires to make it perfectly clear that the School Boards shall have power in their own schools to start and carry on education of this kind. I think the proposition an exceedingly wise one. The Member for Stockton has, on the application of the Liverpool School Board, given the opinion that, under the 17th section of the existing Code, a School Board may even now carry on technical instruction so long as it does not apply for a Parliamentary grant. But this opinion may not be upheld, and has not the force of law. Now, what this clause would do is to legislate on the lines of that opinion and make it perfectly clear that the powers of the School Board extend to the provision of technical education under this Act, and I hope it will be carried. This clause would clearly define the powers of the School Board, and I hope it will be carried.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 17; Noes 69.—(Div. List, No. 358.)

MR. H. J. WILSON

I now move a clause limiting the duration, of the Bill to the 31st December, 1892.

New Clause (Duration of Act,)—(Mr. H. J. Wilson,)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. PICTON

If this clause is accepted it will probably facilitate further proceedings with this Bill. It can do no harm. If the Bill works well, it can easily be renewed; whereas if it works badly we shall be glad to get rid of it.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 72.—(Div. List, No. 359.)

MR. WOODALL

I hope the fact that this Bill has been considerably amended, through the efforts of my hon. Friends, will be fully realised to-morrow, and that the proceedings on the Report stage will not be seriously prolonged. I think it would be very desirable to have the Bill reprinted before the Report stage, in order that hon. Members may see how it has been amended.

MR. GOSOHEN

Every effort shall be made to get the Bill reprinted in time. I hope I may re-echo the wish that the proceedings on the Report stage will not be prolonged, as the Bill has been fully discussed, and I think all parties may now join in the effort to pass it into law.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 391.]