HC Deb 23 August 1889 vol 340 cc249-51
MR. O'KEEFFE (Limerick)

I beg to ask the Solicitor General for Ireland, having regard to his admission that members of the Irish Constabulary were engaged in the purchase of cattle, by competition or otherwise, at fairs in Ireland, if he would direct his attention to a statement of law contained at page 123,4th edition, Bateman's Law of Sale— That biddings must be obtained without fraud and not by means of puffers, white bonnets, or decoy ducks, under a secret understanding that they shall not be bound by their bids; and, if, in view of this dictum and of the implied application of the" Auctions Act, 1847"(page 137, same work), he will direct the discontinuance of this practice?

MR. MADDEN

The hon. and learned Member is mistaken in supposing that the bidding on the part of the constabulary is of the character described in the text book from which he quotes, or that there are any grounds for questioning the legality of the proceeding.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the facts regarding the employment of Sergeant Dallas, R.I.C. and a number of other Irish policemen, as cattle buyers at fairs and markets in Ireland; and, whether the Treasury sanction this employment of public funds for these purposes; and, if so, from what source will these funds be provided?

MR. T. M. HEALY

Was the Treasury consulted by the Irish Government before the Irish police were instructed to bid at fairs for cattle; and, if so, has the right hon. Gentleman sanctioned the practice of Government officials bidding for cattle; and who decides on the fairs which the police bidders are to attend, or the owners whose cattle they are to bid for?

MR. GOSCHEN

No public money, so far as I am aware, has been used for this purpose, and no Treasury sanction has been asked for. I have no knowledge whatever of these transactions.

In reply to a further question by Mr. T. M. HEALY,

MR. GOSCHEN

said: All I can say is, I have not been asked for money; I have not been consulted about money, and I am not aware that any money has passed. I can assure the hon. and learned Member that I have given him all the information in my power.

MR. FLYNN

In view of the statement that the bids of the police are bonâ fide, will the Treasury sanction the payment of any money that may be expended? I ask this question in the future tense.

MR. GOSCHEN

I have given the hon. Member all the information in my possession. The Treasury has not been consulted, and as I have no knowledge I am unable to give any information.

MR. T. M. HEALY

The matter is a serious one, and demands an explicit answer. The House has been told in effect that bonâ fide bids have been made by the police in Ireland for landlords' cattle, and Members are entitled to know who supplied the money, and whether it came from the Treasury.

MR. GOSCHEN

I can only assure the hon. Member that I have not been asked for the money, nor consulted about it, and that I am not even aware that any money has passed. I gave the hon. Gentleman all the information in my power. I was quite unaware until I heard the question put yesterday that anything of the kind had occurred. I do not know what the answer of the Irish Executive may be.

MR. A. O'CONNOR

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman or the Solicitor General if it is open to any party in Ireland to employ the police as agents for the purchase of cattle or for any other purpose.

MR. MADDEN

I do not think the hon. Gentleman quite apprehends the nature of the case. It is alleged that intimidation exists of such a character as to prevent bidding at sales. The bidding of the police is of a bonâ fide character, the object being to obtain evidence for the prosecution, if possible, of the persons guilty of intimidation.

MR. BEADLAUGH (Northampton)

In view of the answer of the Solicitor General and seeing that the Treasury have not been consulted as to providing the money, are any of these bonâ fide sales to be followed by cash payments in the event of cattle being knocked down to the police? Will the money be paid out of the Secret Service Fund or some other fund of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has no knowledge?

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH,) Strand, Westminster

I have no hesitation in saying that it will not be paid out of the Secret Service Fund. I am not aware out of what fund the money will be paid, but if the hon. Member will put a question upon the Paper, I will inquire.

MR. T. M. HEALY

When the police make bids are they provided with money to pay for the cattle if their bids are accepted?

MR. MADDEN

If the hon. and learned Gentleman will give notice of the question I will inquire.

MR. T. M. HEALY

The question is on the Paper, and has already been asked. Are the bids bogus bids, or when the police attend these fairs have they money in their pockets to pay, seeing that their bids are an enhancement of the landgrabbers wares?

MR. MADDEN

That is a totally different question, and the hon. and learned Member must put it down.

MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN (Mayo, S.)

Under what authority do the police act as cattle jobbers?

MR. MADDEN

They are not employed as cattle jobbers.

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order!