HC Deb 22 August 1889 vol 340 cc211-9

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a gum, not exceeding £116,698 (including a Supplementary sum of £7,650), be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1890, for the Expenses of Her Majesty's Embassies and Missions Abroad.

SIR G. CAMPBELL

I hope Her Majesty's Government will not press this Vote now. There are some most important questions to be raised on it, and I trust it will be postponed. If the Government take the Consular Vote I shall not object.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I am afraid the remaining Votes must be taken at an inconvenient hour, whether to-day or to-morrow. However, I at once concur in the request of the hon. Member. We will go on with the Consular Vote.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

25. £86,094, to complete the sum for Consular Services.

MR. BUCHANAN (Edinburgh, W.)

I desire to say a few words on the subject of Nyassaland and Zanzibar. I wish, if I can, to elicit some information from the Under Secretary upon points which have already come under discussion. Her Majesty's Government have in the past given satisfactory assurances, and I want to ask if they can now repeat them. I trust the Government will be able to give an assurance that they are doing all they can to maintain the open navigation of the Zambesi up to the commercial settlement in the district known as Nyassaland. Can they give the House any information as to the state of affairs generally in Nyassaland, and can they assure the House that they are fully maintaining the attitude they have hitherto taken up in regard to possible Portuguese aggressions in that country? Something which looks very like annexation seems to be going on on the part of the Portuguese; and although Her Majesty's Government have declared that they cannot undertake anything in the nature of an expedition into' the interior, I hope they will view with jealousy any attempt on the part of the Portuguese to assert territorial sovereignty. I must say I was disappointed at the answer made by the Under Secretary to-day to my inquiry in regard to the telegram published in this country two days ago giving information as to the proclamation issued in Lisbon, giving sanction to a Portuguese expedition to Pondo's Territory. It was spoken of as a mission, partly ecclesiastical, but steps I understand were to be taken for purposes of colonisation. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that no annexations will be sanctioned by Her Majesty's Government? With regard to Zanzibar, it would be very satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman could give the House some information as to what will be our future policy in regard to the large interests which we have in that country. I should also like to know whether any steps have been taken with a view to securing compensation to British subjects, who, through no fault of their own, have suffered very severely from recent occurrences upon the coast. I understand that the blockade is now to be considered as at an end. I should also like to know what steps are to be taken by the German and English Governments with a view to the future regulation of the slave traffic and the future adjustment of affairs on the South-Eastern Coast of Africa. I also desire to know if there is any prospect of an early assembling of the Conference, which it was suggested Belgium should summon, to consider the question of the Slave Trade, particularly with regard to South-East Africa?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir J. FERGUSSON,) Manchester, N.E.

With regard to the navigation of the Zambesi and the position of British subjects on Lake Nyassa, Her Majesty's Government adhere fully to the declarations that have been made on the subject. They are not unobservant of the course of -events in that region, and they intend to watch and safeguard all the rights which British subjects have acquired in that region. I was unable to-day to answer the question put to me with regard to the erection of a Portuguese mission station as reported in some newspapers, but I fully admit that this is a matter which will require careful watching. With regard to Zanzibar, we have good reason for expecting some permanent improvement to follow on the great exertions made by England and Germany. Of course, I cannot announce what it is proposed to do, but I can say that good results are anticipated. I believe that the Conference will assemble at Brussels on the 15th of October. Probably, the arrangements we may make will be influenced by the results of that Conference.

MR. MOLLOY (King's County, Birr)

I desire to know, Sir, whether all the Papers, complaints, and Memorials which have been received regarding the conduct of the Consular Court of Siam will be submitted to the new Minister who is going out to Siam, with a request that he will examine into the complaints of British residents there and get rid of one of the worst scandals in our Consular Service? I believe it is alleged that the conduct of the British Consul there has been such as to force British residents to go to the American and French Consulates in order to get necessary business transacted.

SIR J. FERGUSSON

I should not like it to go forth that the Consul at Bangkok is an officer not deserving of public confidence. He is a gentleman of long standing, who has passed upwards of 20 years at that place. The new Minister to the Court of Siam is on his way out, and he will undoubtedly look into the complaints, and if the constitution of the Consular Court requires alteration he will have an immediate opportunity of reporting to the Secretary of State to that effect.

MR. MOLLOY

What I asked was—Will the Memorials and other Papers forwarded during the last two or three years be placed before the new Minister to Siam?

SIR J. FERGUSSON

I have no doubt that all the matters in question will be gone into by him.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

There are a good many questions which ought to be raised on this Vote, but I admit it is quite impossible to discuss them at this hour of the night. Now, this Vote includes the salary for the Consul General at Borneo. I have seen an advertisement in the newspapers regarding the Central Borneo Company, and I shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman can give us some information as to the terms on which that Company has been granted a Charter by the Government. Also, I should like to know if the Government are pursuing the policy of granting new Territorial Charters to new companies without first consulting Parliament? It seems to me an extraordinary and unconstitutional course to grant these new Charters giving territorial rights without first consulting Parliament. It may be suggested that a precedent for the granting of this Charter is to be found in the one given to the Hudson's Bay Company in the days of Charles II., but I venture to suggest that nothing of that kind would be suffered in these days. Under the new Charters which are being granted on the African coast, great responsibilities are thrown upon this country. There is the West African Company, the East African Company, and the Niger Company—

THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! I do not think this question is relevant to the Vote under discussion.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

Very well, Sir; then I will content myself with simply asking—Has a Charter been granted to a new Central Borneo Company, and, if so, what is the nature of it, what are its terms, is the Charter completed, or is it only being negotiated, and by whom is it being negotiated?

SIR J. FERGUSSON

The company alluded to is the same company as the North Borneo Company, which is a company of a good many years' standing, and the only change made in the time of the present Government has been that strict regulations have been framed for the management of its affairs, and requiring that an account shall be rendered to the Government of all transactions of a public nature. The colony of Labuan has been placed under the charge of this company, but its administrative affairs will still be revised by the Colonial Office.

SIR J. SWINBURNE

Will the right hon. Baronet assure the House that the Government will take steps to prevent the Portuguese Government from extending their sovereignty or suzerainty to the South or West of the Zambesi?

SIR J. FERGUSSON

That would be rather a strong declaration to make. The policy of the Government has been explained again and again, and it is that they will not recognise any nominal sovereignty where no duties of sovereignty or protectorate have been performed.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

I wish to ask one more question, and that is, what is being done in the case of the Oil River Territory?

SIR J. FERGUSSON

An inquiry is being made into the affairs of the Oil River District by a competent official, and when his Report is sent in the Government will be able to state what is necessary to be done for the better administration of this region. I can assure the House that nothing will be done without full consideration, of all the interests concerned.

Vote agreed to.

26. £12,630 (including a Supplementary sum of £6,000), to complete the sum for the Slave Trade Services.

27. £955, to complete the sum for the Suez Canal (British Directors).

28. £17,728, to complete the sum for the Colonies, Grants in Aid.

MR. W. MCARTHUR (Cornwall, Mid, St. Austell)

There are many questions of interest to colonial people which ought to be discussed in this House, but under the present system of dealing with Supply it is impossible to debate them. I now want to make an appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury, and that is to give the Committee an assurance that we shall next year have a chance of discussing in this House the affairs of the 270 odd millions of people who live outside the British Islands, but who are under our flag. We have not had an opportunity of doing so for the past three Sessions.

MR. W. H. SMITH

I think the appeal of the hon. Gentleman a reasonable one. It is our intention next Session to reverse the order of Votes, so that those which have been fully discussed shall be placed at the end, and those which have not had the same full discussion at the beginning.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

I think that this would be a reasonable arrangement, and I trust it will be carried into effect, and thus give us a reasonable chance of discussing this very important Vote.

Vote agreed to.

29. £48,257, to complete the sum for South Africa and St. Helena.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

At any other time this question would be treated as of enormous importance. It is, however, hopeless to expect the House to discuss it now, and I will, therefore, only ask one or two questions. I want to know whether any steps are being taken to prevent gross injustice to the natives of India in this part of Africa, for I believe a policy is being deliberately pursued of preventing these industrious, clever, and enterprising natives of India entering into competition with white traders. I believe that both in Swaziland and in the Transvaal the Asiatics are not now allowed to trade.

THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! The Transvaal does not come under this Vote.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

Then there is another serious question. The expenses of the Government of Bechuanaland have this year run up from £48,000 to £70,000. Is that increase to be a permanent one, and is the burden to go on increasing year by year?

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Baron H. DE WORMS,) Liverpool, East Toxteth

Her Majesty's Government have made representations to the Government of the Transvaal in regard to any disabilities which natives of India may now suffer there. The increase of the charges in Bechuanaland has been caused by the necessity of increasing the police force; and I may inform the Committee that since that increase has taken place the general condition of Bechuanaland is much more satisfactory than it was before, and free-booting has practically ceased.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

I do not think it right that the expense of increasing the police force should fall on the British taxpayer. This territory was taken over for the benefit of the Cape, and we derive no advantage from it.

Vote agreed to.

30. £21,300, to complete the sum for Subsidies to Telegraph Companies.

31. £1,000, to complete the sum for Cyprus, Grant in Aid.

MR. A. O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)

I wish to know whether the Government have yet seen their way to do something towards relieving the burdens upon the people of Cyprus? These people have not only suffered terribly from locusts and from bad harvests, but they are over weighted with taxation, and they are comparing their position under the present system of administration with that under Turkish rule, greatly to the disadvantage of the existing state of affairs. Indeed, many of them are leaving the island for the mainland, and I wish to ask whether the representations which have been recently made by Cypriotes have been considered, and, if so, what is the result?

BARON H. DE WORMS

The representations made by the Cypriot deputation which has had several interviews with the Secretary of State, and one with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, have been carefully considered, and are still receiving the earnest attention of Her Majesty's Government. I may point out with regard to the repeated allegation that taxation is heavier now in Cyprus than under Turkish rule, that that statement is not correct, but that it has its orgin in a misrepresentation arising from the fact that under Turkish rule the taxation was imposed but not levied, whereas under English rule the collection of taxes has necessarily been more rigidly carried out. Much has already been done to ameliorate the condition of the inhabitants of the Island, and in this direction the levying of the tithes in kind instead of in money has already been adopted in some districts, and it is contemplated to extend this system. This suggested change finds much favour with the Cypriots, as it prevents their being exposed to the loss consequent upon a realisation of produce at times of great agricultural depression. The deputation invited the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a proposal for the establishment of an agricultural or land bank. This proposal was most carefully considered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, while fully recognising the importance of such an institution as a means of rescuing the inhabitants from the clutches of the usurers who now prey upon them, and also of facilitating advances on agricultural holdings at a fair and reasonable rate of interest, pointed out that it would be impossible for the Government to give a guarantee to any such institution, while "they might be willing to allocate to it the whole or a portion of the locust tax. At the same time, he expressed a hope that such an institution might find favour with local or other capitalists who might be willing to promote its foundation, and thereby materially assist the agricultural population. I may point out, in answer to the general allegation that Cyprus is in a worse condition under English than under Turkish rule, that the following are among the advantages which have accrued to the Cypriots under our administration:—the gain to wine-growers by the abolition of tithes on grapes and of the teskerch system; the advantage to the general public by the abolition of tithes on many kinds of fruits and vegetables; the abolition of tithe farming; the changes in the military service system; the removal of export duties; the abolition of roosoomat duties; the removal of the liability to personal labour; and the improvement of the judicial system, which is fully recognised by the Cypriots themselves.

Vote agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.

Committee to sit again to-morrow.