§ "That a sum, not exceeding £260,472, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which wilt come in course of payment during the year-ending on the 31st day of March, 1890, for Superannuation, Retired, and Compassionate-Allowances and Gratuities under sundry-Statutes, and for Compassionate Allowances and Gratuities awarded by the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury."
§ SIR G. CAMPBELLI desire to-ask for an explanation in regard to the enormous number of English prison officials who have retired on the ground of ill-health. The number is put down here at 127 in one year, whilst the corresponding number for Scotland and Ireland is only some half-dozen. It is evident that this enormous number of retirements is not a normal state of things—that there must have been some extraordinary clearance of these officials, and I have a right to ask what that clearance is owing to. We were told yesterday that in every case of retirement these officials are examined by the public Medical Officer, and I want to ask whether a special officer has been sent round to the prisons to weed out these officials, or whether the duty has been left to the local gaol Medical Officers? [Cries of "Divide!"] This is a most important matter. Here we have 127 pensions, and I want to know what are the grounds on which we are asked to pay them? [Cries of "Divide!"] I have a right to go into this matter on behalf 1845 of the taxpayers of the country. I desire to know whether the Government took measures to ascertain whether or not these people were entitled to retire?
§ THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON, Leeds, N.)I think I shall be able to satisfy even the critical requirements of the hon. Member. I think that if I can show the hon. Member that these retirements—leaving out the question of cause for the moment—are retirements which actually affect a reduction in the total before us, the bon. Member will admit that we are better off paying the pensions than paying the full salaries. If these retirements had been made on account of abolition of office we should have had to pay higher pensions. As a matter of fact, the phrase "ill-health" in connection with prison warders is different from what it would mean in the case of other Government servants. In the first place, a prison warder has to be in very full physical vigour; he has to take charge of men not always of the most orderly or ruly character; and it is perfectly within the proper meaning of ill-health when the doctor certifies that the warder's physical vigour and capacity are not equal to the arduous duties he has to discharge. I explained on a previous occasion that the length of service mentioned in the Estimates only refers to the time served under Government after the taking over of the prisons. The hon. Member will find that the number of warders and other officials of corresponding rank in Class 1 is 208 as against 243 last year, so that there is a total reduction of 35, while there is a reduction in the total strength from 1,333 last year to 1,225 this year, or a reduction of 108 men. The total number retired in the year 1888–89 was 130. The staff of the prisons in the United Kingdom represent about 2,500 men, and I believe that this is not much in excess of the average retirement. Last year it was 110. Be that as it may, these men have all been certified by medical men belonging to the State as being eligible for retirement under the ill-health clause. I believe that they have been properly retired, and I think that as their places have not been filled up the Committee has no reason to complain.
§ MR. T. M. HEALYWe know these men have important duties to discharge, and that it is essential that they should be maintained in a perfect state of health and physical vigour. They have occasion now and then to knock down Members of Parliament, and to cut off their moustaches; therefore I think the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy is wrong in the position he has taken up in objecting to the retirement of debilitated warders.
§ MR. BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich)The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury states that warders retired on account of ill-health receive smaller pensions than those retired on abolition of office. That seems to me a remarkable official rule, and it seems to me that it would be far more fitting that men retired on the ground of ill-health should have higher pensions than those retired on abolition of office. Those retired on the ground of ill-health.
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Resolution agreed to.
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £7,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1890, for Pensions to Masters and Seamen of the Merchant Service, and to their Widows and Children.
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £65,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1890, in aid of the Local Cost of Maintenance of Pauper Lunatics in Scotland.
4. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,005, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which' will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1890, in aid of the Local Cost of Maintenance of Pauper Lunatics in Ireland.
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £7,658, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1890, for the support of certain Hospitals and infirmaries in Ireland.
§ MR. SEXTONThe Secretary to the Treasury indicated on Saturday that the Bill the Government have prepared for future settlement of this annual grant would be immediately introduced. As it has not yet made its appearance, I beg to ask the hon. Gentleman for some statement on the subject.
§ MR. JACKSONI hope to be able to give notice of the introduction of the Bill to-morrow.
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Resolution agreed to.
6. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,533, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1S90, to make good the sum by which the Interest accrued in the year ended 20th November, 1888, from Securities held by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, on account of ' The Fund for the Banks for Savings,' and 'The Fund for Friendly Societies' is insufficient to meet the Interest which the said Commissioners are obliged by Statute to Pay and Credit during such latter mentioned year to the Trustees of Savings Banks and to Friendly Societies.
7. "That a sum, not exceeding £939, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1890, for certain Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances in Great Britain.
8. "That a sum, not exceeding, £1,474, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1890, for certain Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances in Ireland.