HC Deb 06 August 1889 vol 339 cc639-42

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Question proposed, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

MR. MURPHY (Dublin, St. Patrick's)

Last night I put down some Amendments to this clause, but I am informed, Sir, that as you have already put the question that the clause stand part of the Bill, it is not open to me to propose them at this stage. Before we proceed further with the Bill I should like to hear the views of the President of the Board of Trade in reference to them.

* SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH (Bristol, W.)

I have no objection to the provisoes which the hon. Member has placed on the Paper; but I think they had better be moved in the form of a new clause. They provide for what the Board of Trade seek to provide; and although I think they may be unnecessary, I can see no objection to accepting them. With regard to the proposed omissions from the first clause, I think they would injure the efficiency of the clause, and I could not agree to them.

MR. MURPHY

I think the President of the Board of Trade has met me very fairly.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

On Clause 3.

* SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH

The hon. Member for Lanarkshire has placed on the Paper an Amendment, substituting 8 hours for 12 hours in this clause; but I think it would be better not to define any particular hours in the clause, but rather to leave the number to be fixed by the Board of Trade from time to time. I think it is obvious that it would be better to have an elastic clause, because what at one time and under certain circumstances might be proper would at another time possibly be injurious to the public safety. The clause, as I propose to amend it, will read— Every railway company shall make to the Board of Trade periodical Returns as to the persons in the employment of the company whose duty involves the safety of trains and passengers, and who are employed for more than such number of hours at a time as may be from time to time named by the Board of Trade.

Amendment proposed, Clause 3, page 2, line 6, leave out "12" and insert "such number," and same clause, same page, line 7, after "time," insert "as may be from time to time named by the Board of Trade"—Agreed to.

* MR. CHANNING (Northampton, E.)

Will the Return be made in the same form as the Return obtained by a noble Lord in another place, and will that show the intervals the men are off duty?

SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH

The Returns will be in the same form as those moved by Earl de la Warr in another place. I presume that will meet the views of the hon. Member.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 16, after "fare," insert "from the place whence he started," (Mr. Johnston.)—Agreed to;

Clause agreed to.

* MR. R. K. CAUSTON (Southwark)

I beg to move the new clause which stands in my name. I think it speaks for itself. I do not think there can be any real opposition to the proposal, and I am only surprised such a provision was not adopted many years ago.

New clause— From and after the first day of January one thousand eight hundred and ninety every passenger ticket issued by any Railway Company in the United Kingdom shall bear upon its face, printed in legible characters, the fare chargeable for the journey for which such ticket is issued; and any Railway Company issuing any passenger ticket which does not bear upon its face the fare chargeable as aforesaid shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings for every ticket so issued, to be recovered on summary conviction, and it shall be the duty of the Board of Trade to enforce such penalty."—(Mr. Causton,) —brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

* SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH

I have no objection whatever to the principle of the clause, but I would suggest that, as the railway companies have on hand large numbers of tickets, the date on which the clause should come into operation should be fixed by an order of the Board of Trade. The time fixed by the clause would not be quite fair to the companies, but I will fix as early a day as possible. I may also point out that difficulties might arise in cases where there were different routes from one station to another place. If the hon. Member will accept a clause which I think will meet his views, I will move it.

The clause is— From and after a date to be fixed by order of the Board of Trade, and subject to such exceptions, if any, as may be allowed by such order, every passenger ticket issued by any railway company shall bear upon its face, printed or written in legible characters the fare chargeable for the journey for which such ticket is issued, and any railway company issuing any passenger ticket in contravention of the provisions of this section shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings for every ticket so issued, to be recovered on summary conviction.

* MR. CAUSTON

I think the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman is a reasonable one and I accept it, and if it is worked out in the spirit I take it that it will be, there will be no necessity for me to introduce my Bill another Session.

The Clause proposed by Mr. Causton was by leave withdrawn.

The New Clause proposed by Sir Michael Hicks Beach was read a second time and added to the Bill.

MR. MURPHY

I beg to move the SECOND READING of the new Clause in my name.

Question proposed,

"That the following new Clause be read a Second Time: 'Whenever any Railway Company shall be ordered by the Board of Trade to provide any appliances, or execute any works, or incur any expenditure under the provisions of this Act, which would properly be chargeable to capital account, it shall be lawful for such Company to furnish to the Board of Trade an estimate of the cost of providing such appliances, executing such works, and carrying out such order generally, and thereupon the Board; of Trade shall, upon the application of the Company, fix and determine the amount which would properly be capital expenditure, and the Company may, from time to time, issue debentures or debenture stock in priority to or ranking pari passu with any existing debentures or debenture stock of such Company bearing interest at a rate not exceeding five per cent per annum to an amount not exceeding the sum so fixed and determined, and any money raised under the provisions of this Section shall be applied in carrying out such requirements of the Board of Trade and to no other purpose whatsoever, and no other authority save the certificate of the Board of Trade shall be requisite to authorise and validate the issue of such debentures or debenture stock.'

Question put, and agreed to, and Clause added to the Bill.

Bill reported as amended: to be considered to-morrow.