HC Deb 23 November 1888 vol 331 cc12-4
MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, If he will state why no provision was made in the Estimates for 1886–17, 1887–8, or 1889, for the pension awarded to Mr. Clifford Lloyd in 1885; and, whether it has hitherto been the invariable practice to make provision for each pension awarded in the Estimate next succeeding the date of each award?


I am glad that the hon. Member has asked this Question, because it enables me to remove a wrong impression conveyed by me yesterday, when I said that the pension was awarded in 1885. It would be more correct to say that it was awarded in respect to services which terminated in 1885; as a fact, the pension was not granted until March, 1888, and therefore the hon. Member will see that no provision could be made in the Estimate to which he refers.


Was Mr. Clifford Lloyd in receipt of any salary during the years 1886, 1887, and 1888?


Yes, Sir; he was in receipt of a salary from his Colonial appointment from the end of 1885 until 1887. It is not the practice of the Treasury to grant pensions in respect of services to an officer so long as he is in receipt of a salary in another appointment exceeding that of the appointment he has left. The hon. Member will, therefore, see that up to 1887, during which time he continued to draw a salary in respect of his Colonial appointment, the pension for his previous services really could not come into operation.


Then I understand the correct answer to be that Mr. Clifford Lloyd's employment ceased in 1885 on a certificate that he was permanently unfit for any service, and he then took service in the Colonies, for which he received a salary?


No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman must not understand that to be the reply. Mr. Clifford Lloyd was granted a pension in respect of services which terminated in 1885 on a medical certificate that he was incapacitated for the discharge of the duties of the post he then held. The House will understand that if, at a subsequent date, an officer so retired on such a certificate should recover his health, it would be quite open to the Government to call upon him to take up his duty in Ireland.


Then I understand that after being certified to be permanently unfit, he recovered, was employed, and now has a pension for the unfitness on which he retired?

MR. HANBURY (Preston)

Is it a fact that those medical certificates of permanent incapacity distinctly state that that incapacity only applies to the work that the officer was engaged upon at the time?

SIR WILLIAM PLOWDEN (Wolverhampton, W.)

When was the medical certificate granted?

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

Can the hon. Gentleman kindly inform us what is the precise state of Mr. Clifford Lloyd's health at the present moment?


I am sorry that I am unable to answer that Question, because I do not know. The certificate was given in 1885, when Mr. Clifford Lloyd retired. As to the Question of my hon. Friend (Mr. Hanbury), the words of the certificate are to the effect that the officer in whose behalf it is given is incapacitated—[An hon. MEMBER: Permanently?]—permanently incapacitated if you like, for the discharge of his duty; and in this case it was distinctly stated by his medical attendant that he could not, without serious risk to his life, in consequence of the condition of his health, continue in the discharge of his duty.

MR. HENRY H. FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.)

Was the attention of the Government called to the Report of the Royal Commission on Civil Service Establishments with reference to these medical certificates, and especially to the dissatisfaction the Commissioners expressed with the manner in which certificates were granted, and to their recommendation that the Treasury should have an independent medical opinion in all cases?


Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer that Question. Our attention has certainly been called to the extremely important recommendations made by the Commission; it has been my duty to look through them; and I hope it will be possible for the Government to submit either a change in the Regulations, or a Bill to the House, carrying out a portion of the recommendations of the Commission.

MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Camborne)

inquired what was the length of service in respect of which this gentleman got his pension; whether when he was certified permanently unfit for service in Ireland he was also certified permanently unfit for service abroad; and how long it took him to recover his health?


When the hon. Gentleman answers that Question perhaps he will also say who was the medical man who gave that certificate. Will he produce the name, and tell us whether it was Dr. Barr?


No, Sir; it was not Dr. Barr. The hon. Member for Cam-borne asked what period elapsed before Mr. Clifford Lloyd recovered his health? I have not heard that he has recovered his health, and so cannot answer the hon. Member. His length of service was, I believe, 11½ years.

MR. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.)

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether Mr. Clifford Lloyd lost his health endeavouring to restore law and order in Ireland? And during the time he was doing so did not the Land League offer a reward for his assassination?


The hon. Member will see that these are Questions I am unable to answer.