HC Deb 22 November 1888 vol 330 cc1819-21
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (Kirkcaldy, &c.)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, When, under what Rules, on what ground, after how long service, and at what age Mr. Clifford Lloyd obtained a pension for service as an Irish magistrate; whether the time counted for pension included any, and what, periods during which he was serving elsewhere; what was the amount of the salary and the amount of the pension; and, where the record of these particulars is to be found?

THE SECRETARY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

, in reply, said, that the pension was awarded under the Rules of the Superannuation Act. Mr. Clifford Lloyd retired on the ground of ill-health after 12 years' service, and at the age of 41. The amount of the salary was £673, and the amount of the pension £326. It had not been drawn until this year.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

When was the pension granted?

MR. JACKSON

In 1885.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

asked whether the certificate of ill-health was that Mr. Lloyd was unable to serve as an Irish magistrate; and, if so, how it was that he was still able to serve the Government in Egypt and Mauritius?

MR. JACKSON

I am not aware that any certificate of that kind was granted.

THE LORD MAYOR OF DUBLIN (Mr. SEXTON) (Belfast, W.)

In what Vote is the pension to be found?

MR. JACKSON

In the list attached to the yearly Estimates. There is a list published with the Estimates showing the pensions that fell out in the preceding year, and the pensions that have been added. This pension will be found in the list after next year's Estimate.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

If the pension was granted in 1885, why it does not appear before next year's Estimate?

MR. JACKSON

I did not say it was granted in 1885; it was awarded in 1885; and the reason why it has not hitherto appeared is that it has not been drawn till this year.

MR. HANBURY (Preston)

Was it given upon the usual medical certificate—a certificate which must state "permanent incapacity" for work?

MR. JACKSON

Yes, Sir.

MR. CUNNINGHAME GRAHAM (Lanark, N.W.)

If the pension was sanctioned in 1885, how is it that it does not come before us to be dealt with until next year?

MR. JACKSON

I am afraid that I am unable to make the hon. Gentleman understand; but if no money has been paid it will not appear in the Estimates. I have stated that the pension was awarded; but I did not say it was paid.

MR. BRADLAUGH (Northampton)

Is it not the habit to make provision in the Estimates for all pensions awarded; and, if so, why not in this case?

MR. W. O'BRIEN (Cork Co., N.E.)

I understand the certificate to be that he is "permanently incapacited." How does the hon. Gentleman explain that Mr. Lloyd was sent out to Egypt and Mauritius?

MR. JACKSON

I think that Questions with reference to Egypt and Mauritius should be addressed to the Representative of some other Department.

MR. W. O'BRIEN

Then I shall try and find out from some other Department which has got an answer.

Subsequently,

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, as Papers were not forthcoming at present, he could save trouble by throwing a little light upon this subject? Were they to understand that Mr. Clifford Lloyd, in the year 1885, was awarded a pension as an Irish magistrate upon a medical certificate of permanent disability; that he was afterwards employed in several other Departments, and upon leaving them was allowed to go back upon his pension?

MR. JACKSON

Yes; I think the House may understand that Mr. Clifford Lloyd was awarded a pension in 1885, upon a medical certificate stating that he was permanently incapable of discharging the duties he was then performing.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)

asked, whether the House correctly interpreted the hon. Gentleman's answer to mean that while the certificate stated that Mr. Clifford Lloyd was unfit for the particular employment he was then engaged in, it left open the question whether he was physically and mentally fit for other employments?

MR. JACKSON

It is well understood that a medical certificate given to an officer in the discharge of any duty refers only to the duty which he is then discharging.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

Are we to understand that the Treasury will sanction the appointment of an official for employment in the Public Service after that official has received a pension on the ground that he is permanently unfit for the Public Service?

MR. JACKSON

Well, I think the hon. Member had better give Notice of the Question.