HC Deb 21 March 1888 vol 323 cc1956-62

Order for Consideration, as amended, read.

MR. COZENS-HARDY (Norfolk, N.)

said, he had given Notice of a Motion for the re-committal of the Bill, in order to enable a clause to be inserted whereby trustees who found themselves in possession of Consols or Bank Annuities, which would by this Act be turned into New Stock, would be able to change the investment to such funds as were now authorized by the practice of the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice. Probably, in 99 out of every 100 cases, this power already existed by law; but there might be some cases in which funds were left with express stipulations that they should be invested only in Consols. When an Act of Parliament effecting a conversion came into force, it was only reasonable that trustees should be in the same position as they would be but for this peculiar state of circumstances. A clause was passed in Committee, yesterday on the Motion of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Gedge), but it did not go the full length of this clause. He begged to move the Motion which stood in his name.

MR. SPEAKER

Instead of moving that the Bill be re-committed "with respect to a new clause," it would be better to move that the Bill be re-committed, and "that it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to consider a clause to empower trustees to invest the proceeds of funds converted or exchanged under the Bill in certain other securities."

Question, "That the Bill be re-committed,"—(Mr. Cozens-Hardy,)—put, and agreed to. "Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee, That they have power to consider a Clause to empower trustees to invest the proceeds of funds converted or exchanged under the Bill in certain other securities.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

On the Motion of Mr. Cozens-Hardy, the following clause was agreed to and added to the Bill:— When any stock, converted or exchanged by virtue of this Act into new stock, is held by a trustee, such trustee shall be at liberty to sell the same, and to invest the proceeds arising from such sale in any of the securities for the time being authorized by the High Court of Justice for the investment of cash under its control, notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in the instrument creating the trust.

Bill reported; as amended, considered.

On the Motion of Mr. Jackson, Amendments made in Clause 2, page 2, last line, after the first word "such," by inserting the words "sums or;" in Clause 9, page 6, line 11, after "Ireland," by inserting— In the case of stock standing in the name of the Accountant General of the Supreme Court of Judicature in Ireland, may, with the approval in each case of the Treasury.

MR. F. S. POWELL (Wigan)

begged to move the Amendment which he introduced yesterday in Committee, but he had not then had an opportunity of putting in print. In the course of their discussion yesterday, certain powers were given to the Lord Chancellor, the Secretary for Scotland, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, to give assent where funds were in the hands of the Court, and the proposal he had to submit was that like power be given to the Charity Commissioners. The proposal was made in the interests of many of the small charities throughout the country. The whole amount of Consols held by them, he believed, exceeded £10,000,000 sterling, and it would save a great deal of trouble, much uncertainty and hardship, if power was given to the Charity Commissioners to give consent in respect of these trusts. He had had an opportunity of holding correspondence with many trustees of these small charities, and he found that great difficulty and uncertainty existed as to proceeding under the Bill. He therefore proposed that the Charity Commissioners should have power to act in their behalf. At the sane time he reserved to the trustees full power to dissent, and had no doubt that under the regulations ample opportunity of dissenting would be afforded them.

Amendment proposed, In Clause 9, page 6, at end of Clause, add—"Provided, that the Treasury may make regulations whereby the Charity Commissioners for England and Wales may on behalf of the said trustees or parsons consent to the exchange of the stock unless dissent from such exchange is signified within the time and in the manner fixed by the regulations."—(Mr. F. S. Powell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. HENRY H. FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.)

said, he thought it would be necessary to introduce a word or two if the clause was to be made workable. By whom was the dissent to be expressed. The clause said, "unless dissent from such exchange is signified within the time and in the manner fixed by the regulations." Someone must have power conferred upon them.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER) (Isle of Wight)

said, that if the right hon. Gentleman looked at the Bill he would find that dissent was to be given by the persons who administered the Charity. It was simply intended that they should be able to express dissent without expense.

MR. HENRY H. FOWLER

Where is it?

SIR RICHARD WEBSTER

I think it is in Clause 9.

MR. HENRY H. FOWLER

There is nothing mentioned of it in that clause.

MR. F. S. POWELL

said, that if the right hon. Gentleman would look at line 26 of Clause 9 he would find the words— On the request or with the consent of the trustees or persons acting in the administration of the charity to which that stock belongs.

Question put, and agreed to.

On the Motion of Mr. JACKSON, Amendment, made in Clause 19, at end, by adding— And trustees and other persons acting in a fiduciary character are hereby expressly authorized to make such exchange or give such dissent.

MR. W. BECKETT (Notts, Bassetlaw)

said, he proposed to insert after "Stock," Clause 22, line 2, the words, "or to any person or persons holding a power of attorney to receive dividends on Stock." The object of the Amendment was to put those who held the powers of attorney in the same position as the stockholder himself.

Amendment proposed, In Clause 22, line 2, after "stock" insert "or to any person or persons holding a, power of attorney to receive dividends on stock."—(Mr. W. Beckett.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON) (Leeds, N.)

said, he would suggest to his hon. Friend that he should omit the words "or persons." The object of the hon. Member would be attained without the words.

MR. W. BECKETT

said, he was quite willing to make the Amendment.

Question, "That the words ' or persons' stand part of the proposed Amendment," put and negatived.

The CHAIRMAN

asked what was meant by the Amendment?

MR. JACKSON

said, with the Amendment, Sub-section 5 of the Claus9 would read— Any payment which the Board was authorized by or under this Act to make to a holder of stock or to any person holding a power of attorney to receive dividends on stock.

Question put, and agreed to.

Sir RICHARD WEBSTER

said, that in consequence of the clause which was accepted in the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Cozens-Hardy) with regard to the change of investment, the clause which was adopted by the Committee yesterday must be struck out. He begged to move its omission.

Amendment proposed, to omit the clause, "Transfer of Investment."—(Sir Richard Webster.)

Question, "That the Clause proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put and negatived.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

asked whether bankers who held Consols of their own would be allowed to have the commission of 1s. 6d. per cent if they converted those Consols.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN) (St. George's, Hanover Square)

said, it was only recognized agents who wore to receive commission.

MR. LABOUCHERE

asked, whether if a banker made an arrangement to halve the commission with, a broker he could be proceeded against for malpractice.

MR. GOSCHEN

said, he should certainly say not. The Bank of England would be authorized to pay 1s. 6d. for brokerage, but he did not think the Bank of England or the House of Commons would follow the brokerage when it had once reached the pockets of the broker.

MR. C. W. GRAY (Essex, Maldon)

said, he desired to ask a question with reference to a new clause which was added to the Bill yesterday, and which referred to property which was held in the Court of Chancery. He was afraid that a good deal of inconvenience if not hardship would be occasioned to those who derived dividends from this class of property. The law had said that certain money should be invested in the Court of Chancery, and they knew that when the Court of Chancery once got a grasp of property it was very reluctant to let it go again. Annuitants under these circumstances, he was afraid, would hardly find that the word "may," which was added to the clause yesterday, meaning that the redemption of the property by a trustee "may" be authorized by the Court, would have much effect. He wanted to ask whether there was anything more in the Amendment which was added yesterday than merely giving a discretion to the Judge, which, he thought, would be leaving things very much as they were. Then, he further wished to ask whether anything could be done to lessen the costs of the annuitants who applied to the Court of Chancery to know whether this redemption and transfer of the investment would be allowed. They knew that no question could be put to the Court of Chancery at present on these matters without great expense.

MR. GOSCHEN

said, he was unable to answer the latter part of the hon. Member's question, though he knew that every effort would be made to cut down expenses. With regard to the former part of the question, if the Lord Chan- cellor agreed to a certain discretion being left in his hands—and presumably ha did, seeing that he was a Member of the Government who brought forward the Bill—no doubt he would exercise that discretion in the sense in which he was permitted to exercise it in the Act of Parliament. He (Mr. Goschen) did not thick it would be right to direct the Lord Chancellor absolutely by the word "shall."

Bill to be read the third time Tomorrow.

It being twenty-five minutes after Six of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.